Choice of new boiler

We have a fairly large four bedroom house,and may soon require a new boiler,since the old one (Glowworm 85/100)is getting rather old,though very reliable.Until I am sure of the reliability and suitability of the possible replacements,I will not change it.We recently had a small modification to our system (removal of a Drayton valve on the output of the gravity feed to the hot water cylinder which was blocked with sludge.The boiler seems now to be much more efficient.From comments made by the plumber,I would like some balanced advice.

1)He recommends a new type of large Combi boiler (Valiant) on the grounds that it is cheaper, easier to install, less disturbance,etc.He thinks our water pressure is adequate to provide for a conventional shower.He also says that another advantage is that we will not need cold water tanks in the loft,or a storage hot water cylinder. We think that there are disadvantages in that the system has to be pressurised,with possible problems if small leaks occur,our mains pressure fluctuates quite a lot (shower problems?),and that baths take longer to run in very cold weather.

2) He indicates that current building regulations require the retro fitting of thermostatic radiator valves on all radiators,which he says he can fit easily,and also recommends some form of wireless control for the system. All sounds too complicated for me and too much to go wrong.What are the minimum controls required these days to improve efficiency of use?

3) He says that a new condensing boiler operating in a more conventional system with cold feed+ expansion tanks together with a new hot water cylinder ( we have a Primatic cylinder at present ) will be three times more expensive,but we are prepared to pay this if the system is reliable and without disadvantages.

4) One other thing concerns me.Condensing boilers have had a bad press over the last few years-rotting internal components, blocked condensation pipe outlets in cold weather,need six monthly servicing to keep efficient.I am still of the opinion the design of these boilers is still in its infancy.I do not wish to install a new system and have a load of hassle.

5) I am sure that our radiators are partially blocked with sludge,but wonder how effective power flushing is.I understand that all that happens is that a powerful pump is installed to push the sludge around and out of the system.Doesnt that just push the sludge to collect at other points.The other alternative is to put in chemicals to dissolve the sludge,but understand that these do not work that well.

So you can understand why I wish to hang on to my existing siystem since it has served us well for over 45 years. I am sure that the boiler may be on its last legs ,the radiators and radiator valves are becoming bunged up with sludge,but I am still of the belief that if it is not broken,dont fix it -unless of course we have to.

Michael

Reply to
michael
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I went through a similar dilemma as you three years ago. Whether to have our conventional boiler replaced with a modern 'like for like' - or go the whole hog and switch to a combi.

In the even we went for the combi (a Worcester Bosch 30CDi) - mainly because it enabled me to get rid of the hot water cylinder in the bathroom airing cupboard, rip out the cupboard itself - and replace it with a walk-in offset-quadrant shower cubicle. (And, as you have pointed out, we were also able to remove all the tanks and piping from our loft, freeing up space up there and reducing the risks of loft pipe bursts).

We have not been disappointed. Our gas bills have dropped quite dramatically because, of course, we are only heating water as it is drawn - not heating a whole tank of water, most of which may never be used. The shower is terrific with good temperature and plenty of flow. It does take a bit longer to fill a bath - but no so long that it is a concern. You get used to it and just start it running a bit sooner. Having said that - with the walk-in shower cubicle we don't often have baths.

The WB boiler has been totally reliable so far, I think the days of condensate causing corrosion problems are behind us now. The technology was new - but has developed over time and is much improved.

Freezing of condensate drains is only a problem if, of course, there is no internal drain to feed the condensate into. Our boiler is in the attached garage and the drain exits the garage wall and runs beneath the side concrete path into a soak-away. It did freeze up last winter during that prolonged sub-zero spell - but I defrosted it easily with kettles of hot water and then covered the 'run' over with bin-liners full of old sheets and towels until the temperatures rose. I've since improved the insulation on the pipe run.

You don't say how many bathrooms/en suites you have or how many people will want to run hot water at the same time. There is now only my wife and I in our house and with a single bathroom the combi is wholly adequate. If you have a bathroom and an en suite which may be used at the same time then you may want a more powerful combi to cope with the extra flow. If my wife turns on a hot tap downstairs while I am having a shower, there is a drop in flow - but still sufficient to continue with a decent shower.

Vaillant (not 'Valiant'!) are good boilers - although I was advised that after-sales service and parts supply is better from Worcester Bosch if needed.

From my own experience I would recommend that you go for the combi, my wife and I are certainly delighted with ours, but everyone has their own preferences!

Reply to
Ret.

Last weekend my boiler stopped working leaving us with no hot water or CH (admittedly the latter is harly a problem at this time of year!). One quick flick of the immersion heater switch and suddenly life was so much better.

I personally hate the "all your eggs in one basket" approach of combis. Fine when the work but when they don't (and if you have to wait for spares) an absolute pain in the *rse!

Tim

Reply to
Tim Downie

Yes, I can see that there are downsides as well as positives to combis. But I could point out that in order to have that fail-safe system (which will be used only very rarely) you are forced to heat up a large tankful of hot water every day, and only a fraction of that tankful may be used. Yes, good insulation will prevent excessive temperature drop overnight, or during the day, - but a temperature drop there certainly will be - and that will require fuel to reheat it up again.

We were astonished at how much our gas bills dropped after the installation of the combi. How much of this was due to only heating water on demand, and how much to the replacement of a 30 year old boiler with a modern condensing boiler, it's impossible to say.

Reply to
Ret.

My opinion only:- Dunno why you doubt your boiler? Just get the rest of the system sorted - you don't change your car engine just 'cos the brake pies are corroded... even if the greens would have you change to an electric moped. If the boiler /really/ dies (how?) then replace it.

Reply to
Geo

Quite easy if you look at gas usage during the summer period. The big saving is likely down to the more efficient boiler. How much just heating hot water on demand depends on many variables.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I fairly recently did much the same thing - replaced a still working well older boiler. It was a convenient time to do so due to other works. I did all the work myself.

1) Plumbers invariably recommend what suits them. For maximum profit. It's human nature.

A pressurised primary is the norm these days. It doesn't really run at that much higher pressure than the highest (ie at the bottom) found in some open ones. Benefits are any water loss through a leak is restricted to the system contents. No danger of pumping over etc. I had no problems at all after changing - and pretty well everything other than the boiler remained unchanged. As regards changing to a combi, only you can say. I didn't. My mains water pressure and flow is poor, and I like having an immersion as backup. I also like a powerful shower and a fast filling bath. YMMV, of course.

2) I already had thermostatic valve all round. Make sure he quotes for good quality ones. Cheap ones fail. Wireless controls may have their uses where hard wiring is impossible, but only then.

3) He's pulling your plonker.

4) Think you've found all the horror stories and rolled them into one. A condensing boiler is more complicated, but if well made will be fine. After all modern cars are much more complicated than once, but are far more reliable. And a modern boiler shares quite a bit in principle with a fuel injected engine... Problems with condensate drains freezing are down to the installation. All boiler makers give instructions on how to avoid this - but a plumber seeking maximum profit does it the easiest way.

5) I take it you never bothered with inhibitor? After a good clean out it is IMHO essential. If the rads are all having thermostatic valves fitted, that would be a good time to remove them and flush them through. I did use a chemical cleaner before removing the old boiler - but on draining I'm not sure it was needed. I certainly wasn't going to pay for a 'power flush'.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I second that. We regretted converting to a combi at our last house for several reasons including the boiler breakdown issue. Slow bath filling, reduced shower pressure (we previously had a pumped shower). Biggest issue was when the water went off and we were left with nothing. I know it doesn't happen very often but a least with the conventional system you have a tank ful in the loft.

We then moved to this house and replaced an ancient gas boiler with a new Ideal Mexico HE36. It has not been trouble free as recently reported, two failed auto air valves and a failed PCB in 5 years. Sadly the installer, despite being a respected local trader of many years standing shut up shop and buggered of to Spain so we had no comeback. Had we used a company still trading we would probably have had a claim honoured for PCB replacement.

Mike

Reply to
MuddyMike

I second that. We regretted converting to a combi at our last house for several reasons including the boiler breakdown issue. Slow bath filling, reduced shower pressure (we previously had a pumped shower). Biggest issue was when the water went off and we were left with nothing. I know it doesn't happen very often but a least with the conventional system you have a tank ful in the loft.

We then moved to this house and replaced an ancient gas boiler with a new Ideal Mexico HE36. It has not been trouble free as recently reported, two failed auto air valves and a failed PCB in 5 years. Sadly the installer, despite being a respected local trader of many years standing shut up shop and buggered of to Spain so we had no comeback. Had we used a company still trading we would probably have had a claim honoured for PCB replacement.

Whilst the system was drained having the new boiler installed I took the opportunity to remove every radiator, take them outside and give them a thorough flushing with the hose pipe.

Mike

Reply to
MuddyMike

On a primatic system?

Reply to
ARWadsworth

But is the saving likely to offset the cost of changing it and potentially higher servicing costs? You will possibly only get 10 years out of it and even during that period will likely to have to change parts

Bob

Reply to
Bob Minchin

We also had a pumped shower prior to switching to a combi - but find the new shower just as powerful with just as much water flow (and a lot quieter!). I think the important thing is to get a powerful combi - and not just the lowest power suitable for your premises.

Worcester Bosch have a boiler recommendation program on their website. For our situation (3 bed detached with single bathroom) they recommend the Greenstar 24i Junior. We actually went for the 30 CDi. which they would probably argue is 'overkill'. Whatever - it means that we have stacks of hot water on demand, a powerful shower without the need for a pump, and a bath that fills only marginally slower than it did under our old conventional system.

A replacement boiler is usually a 'distress purchase' - ie a purchase that people don't really want to make - and so they will go for the least expenditure. It's false economy in my view. A Reliant Robin will get you down to Cornwall (eventually!) - but you will get there faster, and with less effort, and in greater comfort, in a decent car.

I would recommend anyone considering switching to a combi to go for a more powerful boiler than the minimum recommended. They wont regret it.

Reply to
Ret.

Just to add to the above.

The Greenstar 24i Junior has a heating output of 24 kw. Its flow rate is 9.8 litres per minute at 35 degree temperature rise.

The Greenstar 30CDi has a heating output of 30 kw. Its flow rate is 13.1 litres per minute at 35 degree temperature rise.

You can see from this why the 30 CDi will fill a bath faster than the basic minimum boiler recommended for the property.

Reply to
Ret.

Does that prevent inhibitor being used in the primary circuit?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I was replacing our bathroom and wanted to get rid of the airing cupboard (containing the hot water cylinder) and replace it with a separate shower cubicle. I could only do this by installing a combi. Only time will tell how long the new boiler will last. I suspect that lessons have been learned from the premature failure of early condensing boilers - and I certainly hope that our new boiler will last longer than 10 years.

Reply to
Ret.

I refer the RHG to

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Reply to
ARWadsworth

I'm sure most of it will, but I'm willing to bet that an old "conventional" boiler would only need a few thermocouples in that time. A combi will probably eat its way through several expensive components in that time AND, thanks to the clock chip built into them all these days, chose to only break down during public holidays. ;-)

Tim

Reply to
Tim Downie

I can only hope that you are wrong!

Reply to
Ret.

They will be wrong for Spring Bank Holiday next year - so long as you don't apply the Worcester-Bosch-Vaillant-Poxi-Batterton updates released to address this issue.

Reply to
polygonum

Is there something special about spring bank holiday 2012? My calendar has it on 28th May

Bob

Reply to
Bob Minchin

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