Chimney breast loft support

I am selling a house which has had a chimney breast removed, part of which remains in the loft, it is on a party wall, the potential purchasers are asking for proof of adequate support, there looks to be no steels holding the up the stack, could another method have been used, and if its not correct roughly what price would sort the job. Next doors opposing chimney breast is still in place.

Reply to
Richard Grounddiver
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The first thing you need is a structural engineer to tell what needs doing. If work does need to be done then you need to serve a party wall notice on your neighbour for which you will have to pay all the costs. Nobody can give you any meaningful answer to the overall cost at this stage but expect to pay several hundred for the engineer's report and recommendation.

Peter Crosland

Reply to
Peter Crosland

Party wall? Why? All he needs is the breast in the loft securing. It sounds as if it is not. If it comes down it can crash through the bedroom celing. I have seen unistrut made into large triangular looking shelf supports under the breast brickwork and rawlbolted to the party wall. I'm not sure if this was legal or not. It looked strong enough. The chimney can be used to flue a lofted fitted boiler through, giving it some use.

In a few cases I would have benefitted by ripping out breasts. They take a amazing amount of space. What is the usual method securing a breast in the loft?

Reply to
timegoesby

But better to first tell the purchaser you have no such proof and see what happens.

If it comes to it, oOne option would be to tell the purchasers that if they want to pay for a structural engineer's report then they can do so; however my experience suggests you'd probably be better off commissioning your own: see

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David

Reply to
Lobster

Bollocks to that. Those I've seen were supported by a pair of gallows brackets and a steel cross piece. Not rocket science. At least 2 of those houses were sold without query

Reply to
Stuart Noble

A pair of gallows brackets is a common solution. However it is also possible to support it on stringers added between existing joists. Note that this is more commonly done when a stack is terminated above the ground floor and not above the first floor.

Reply to
John Rumm

What dimensions would these stringers be, John? I can think of a couple of houses where this might be a solution. The stacks have been without support for 20 years or more but I guess every house has to be sold eventually

Reply to
Stuart Noble

It didn't remove itself. Who removed, or instructed the removal of, the chimney breast? You've described a 'house', not a bungalow, have chimney breasts been removed on ground and (bedroom) first floors?

The weight of chimney breast should be supported, ultimately, by the foundations. What load-path does the stack currently have? What ' part ... remains in the loft' ?

An alternative method is to 'corbel' the stack by having bricks each row set-in to provide support - I don't this method is currently authorised by BCO.

Reply to
Brian Sharrock

Because if the work that needs doing affects a Party Wall then it is legally required. The purchaser's solicitor will almost certainly tell them not to proceed unless, and until, the work is done.

Reply to
Peter Crosland

We had this problem in the house we recently sold. The buyers' surveyor picked up that the existing solution probably wouldn't have met the regs of 40 years ago when the job was done, so it became a bone of contention.

We needed to close that deal and move quickly, so we decided not to haggle, but simply to arrange to get the job done at the lowest possible cost. We did the negotiation with the BCO, got the Structural Engineer's report and drawing, had the metalwork made, and worked out how much the actual fixing work would cost. Then we presented it all to the buyers as a fait accompli.

Fortunately, everybody agreed there was no immediate danger; the job just needed to be done within a reasonable time.

The BCO agreed that if the SE specified a solution that was clearly adequate (ie obviously OTT), he wouldn't ask for detailed calcs for such minor works. That saved us a lot of money because, having looked at the job, the SE simply pulled out an existing drawing for a steel 'shelf'. This consisted of a pair of welded brackets, to be fixed to the party wall using resin anchors, and supporting a 10mm steel plate on which the brickwork could rest.

The shelf probably weighed more than the small number of bricks it was supporting below the corbel line... but what the heck, that was what the SE had specified and the BCO agreed to accept it. Where the SE did earn his money was in checking the layout of the party wall and confirming its future stability. The presence of next door's complete chimney breast was a major factor in this (what happens if you're the *second* party wishing to remove chimney breasts is quite another story).

Having done all the preparatory work ourselves, with the metalwork already sitting in the garage, we could tell the buyers just how little remained to be done. That made it easy to persuade them to agree an early completion date and have the job done later on, in their own time. The drawing and the SE's blessing had cost us £350-ish, the metalwork only £40, and we only needed to reduce the agreed purchase price by the cost of one day's building work plus the permit.

Whether they've had the work done yet, I neither know nor care. The important things were that we made it easy for them, it didn't cost us very much - and above all, it allowed us to move out.

Reply to
Ian White

It would depend on the anticipated load of the stack (i.e. size, construction method etc). I have never looked in detail at chimney stacks, so can't give you chapter and verse - so it would be either research or structural engineer time for actual timber sizes. (although logic suggests that almost any size is going to be better than none!)

(If you were doing this to satisfy a BCO you would probably also need to show that the existing floor joists are capable of taking the extra point load at the ends (it won't add much bending moment to the joists, but it could exceed their shear rating at the end where they are supported on the wall)).

Reply to
John Rumm

At closer inspection it is supported with a 3 inch thick timber spanning 2 joists it hasnt been a problem in 15 years so i would guess its ok.

Reply to
Richard Grounddiver

Thanks, John. I'll look into it

Reply to
Stuart Noble

So what's the difference between a bracket to support a chimney breast and one to support a shelf, other than size and weight? You' don't hear of many party wall agreements for the latter.

MBQ

Reply to
manatbandq

The difference is in the scale of the work. The reason for the PWA is to ensure that the integrity of the wall is not compromised by works done. Common sense should tell you that.

Peter Crosland

Reply to
Peter Crosland

It's probably "OK" in the sense that it is unlikely to fall down anytime soon; but that isn't what you originally asked about.

You asked about providing the prospective buyers of "proof of adequate support". This is a totally different thing, because you'd need to show that "3 inch thick timber spanning 2 joists" complies with building regs. From my experience with very similar situation, you simply haven't any hope of doing that.

Reply to
Ian White

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