Cable locators like Fluke 2042 to find faulty electric ufh?

[swimmydeepo]

The underfloor mat is a ProWarm generating 200w per square metre (the area is about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went co ld all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/ gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here... The mat is still under warranty but the boys at ProWarm are making it diffi cult and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them... Still, it would be nice to be able to check these sort of faults independen tly - there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordabl e (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precis e are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method ? Are 2 transmitters required?

[Bob Minchin]

about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here...

difficult and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them...

- there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

I'm not sure how well this would work, it is not designed to locate a break in the cable. there might well be a break at DC/50Hz but at the test frequency, the capacitance may disguise the break. I would suggest grounding the other end of the cable to help show up the break. Rather than shell out for a cheap copy instrument, I'd look at hiring pro kit.

[swimmydeepo]

this is one of these cable fault locators (apparently a clone of the Fluke):

here's the manual: on page 20 it describe how to find a fault on an underfloor cable:

interestingly there are 2 options: with 1 transmitter and with 2....

[Bob Minchin]

Might be worth a punt then? I see that in the 1 transmitter case, they also advocate grounding the other end.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I have a relatively cheap cable tracer which injects a radio signal and uses a receiver to pick it up. Works just fine to identify a cable in a bunch - so may well tell you where the break is. Got mine from Ebay.

about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here...

difficult and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them...

- there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

[swimmydeepo]

is the one you have like the Mastech on Ebay? (see previous link).

[Nthkentman]

The underfloor mat is a ProWarm generating 200w per square metre (the area is about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here... The mat is still under warranty but the boys at ProWarm are making it difficult and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them... Still, it would be nice to be able to check these sort of faults independently - there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

9 Months old?!?!?!? Scream "Fit for purpose" and tell them to sort it or involve Trading Standards

[Chris J Dixon]

about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here...

and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them...

- there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

If you have an open circuit, then how do you envisage thermal imaging can help? Surely that is only of use if at least some of the mat is still working?

Chris

[swimmydeepo]

They use a megger + thermal imaging....the megohmeter pumps 500v into the c able so the breakage is visible on the thermal camera. I've never seen it done and found this info recently while googling...but a pparently this is the professional way to do it - the gear is very expensiv e compared to the cable locators method (Fluke, Mastech and similar)...so, it is reasonable to assume the thermal camera is more accurate?!

[swimmydeepo]

shocking isn't it? These lifetime warranties are at most a red herring....they are saying it s hould have been fitted by a pro (who? the electrician or the tiler? or both ?) but then the manual is made to believe this can be installed by anyone - in fact the description about the measurements relative to the Resistance (done with a simple multimeter) are fully documented but there is nothing a bout the insulation resistance requirements (done via 500v megger). Then th ey ask me if the work has been commissioned? I said no cos' the house isn't being used and thinking of leaving the commissioning job once the real pro is being called to install and check the whole property...before I start r enting it. So, the guys at ProWarm are make it difficult. I've contacted Trading Stand ards and they suggested to go ahead and send a written complaint - wait for the reply and contact Trading Standard again.

[Brian Gaff]

How can thermal imaging do anything in the case of an open circuit. You would be better off with a signal generator and a small radio!

Brian

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Sounds odd to me. Thermal imaging reacts to heat. How can you heat up something which is open circuit? Wonder if it pumps in an RF signal which a heat sensitive camera can pick up - rather than actual heat?

[swimmydeepo]

If you google a bit you'll find a clear discussion (and pictures too) about this pro using a megger and a thermal image camera (maybe a discussion about a faulty Devi mat on DIYNot forum?)...

[The Other Mike]

about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here...

and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them...

- there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

What is the point in locating the fault? I can't see the point in buying test kit to prove the heating element is faulty or where the fault is. If it's faulty it's faulty and you'll probably have to rip up the entire floor and replace it. It it's in sections that can be isolated then isolate them and power up each bit separately. You might even be able to remove the damaged section and get them to replace that bit under warranty.

Their warranty reeks of universal get out clause

"The warranty does not cover installations made by unauthorized persons or faults caused by incorrect design by others / misuse / damage caused by others / damage in transit / incorrect installation and any other subsequent damage that may occur. Replacement will be fully chargeable if the damage is because of any of the above reason"

[swimmydeepo]

What's the point on locating the fault? Actually, it makes a huge differenc e as one doesn't have to rip the whole floor - just lift one tile and the u fh repair kit costs only about £15... Their warranty is just like many other warranties - seen it all before - th en Trading Standards suggested to just ignore those claims and go ahead com plaining in writing...the point is simple - the product should deliver...it 's up to them to demonstrate the consumer has done something wrong.

[Rick Hughes]

about 12sqm) - it worked perfectly for about nine months then it went cold all of a sudden....I've checked the resistance and gives nil point/dead/gone/zilch - obviously I'm dealing with an open circuit here...

difficult and it appears to me I'll have to find a compromise with them...

- there are some cable locators in the market which are quite affordable (e.g. the Mastek - a Fluke 2042 clone - for £129) - how reliable/precise are these instruments? How do these compare to the thermal imaging method? Are 2 transmitters required?

I have a good cable locater, but you want to find a break in cable .. which may be less than 1 mm .......... no standard cable locater would do that.

You would need one that sends a signal down copper and you trace it to where it stops .... leccy board use them. Fibre cable companies also have signal reflection kit ... pump in a signal it reflects back from break .. .so they know how far along to start digging, there may be non-fibre equiv - but again may be no use on install of small twists & turns.

If it's under warranty, it has failed and there is no sign of alteration or damage then ... just get Prowarm to fix it. If the tools exist they will have them

[The Other Mike]

Assuming it is faulty at just one point.

Does a 'repair' have the same profile as the original cable and what area around the repair location needs to be exposed to enable a repair to be carried out?

Also there appears to be no mention of repair kits on their website.

[swimmydeepo]

The Fluke 2042 and Mastech aren't standard cable locators - they have a tra nsmitter and receiver...if you check their manuals there is a clear referen ce to locate breaks of ufh cables under the tiles. I've sent a complaint to ProWarm...and also, I've just ordered one of those Mastech from Hong Kong for under £130 (I'm taking no chances).

[swimmydeepo]

The ProWarm staff told me they can locate the break and repair the cable and replacing the tiles at their expenses - if one comply with their warranty requirements (of course). So, it assumes they have these repair kit for their mats... Then, I believe these kits (not ProWarm) are universal:

For what I know they leave a cold spot - so, it's not an ideal solution but better than nothing.

[John Rumm]

The higher end Network test gear also has TDR capabilities that will identify the distance to a break. However you also need to know the wire layout to make use of that.

Lower end kit can't do TDR testing, but can often measure cable capacitance and convert that into length. Assuming the break is in just one conductor you may be able to estimate a distance.

Yup, the way I would go in the circumstance.