Bullshit detector: claimed welding experience

[harryagain]

Commonly used in refrigeration and other compressed gases.

Also for large diameter copper pipes.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

For domestic use on domestic water systems and central heating, etc? No need - 'ordinary' solder is quite strong enough. Could be different on a high pressure system like air conditioning.

Of course lead free is the norm on potable water piping now.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Refrigeration engineers are not 'plumbers'

Neither are people repairing car radiators, making model steam engines or constructing artistic sculptures.

do commonly braze or hard solder*

[The Natural Philosopher]

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Soft solder is not silver solder.

It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with the alloys eutectic wotsits.

The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing applications.

[F Murtz]

As I have been trying to explain

Silver solder is a term that manufactures use to describe a high temp harder product that ranges from 2% to a very high percentage of silver Most home handymen use soft solder because it is easier to melt, plumbers use both, depending on how permanent they want or whether the contractor has specified. Plumbers mostly use 2% sometimes 5% it is extremely easy to use if you have oxy acetylene it need no flux copper to copper unless copper to brass

It is strange that this news group seems to have a smattering of most trades except plumbers that contribute.

[F Murtz]

Not in to semantics in this instance. It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top shelf job. Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%. All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few may use soft solder this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the sellers and the users. I do not believe the UK differs much unless they still work in dark age practices Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and prove me wrong.

[whisky-dave]

We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a colour choice.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Is that similar to the 'paint' used to repair a broken track on a car heated rear window etc? Pricey stuff.

[polygonum]

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.)

[F Murtz]

May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces

5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

[The Natural Philosopher]

What is the case is that all or nearly all 'lead free' solder has a very small trace of silver in it, so certain people who are ego driven and want to win arguyments rather than impart information, have claimed that this is 'silver solder' when that term was claimed years ago by high temperature solders used in brazing with significantly high silver concentrations.

Remember the old legal ruling years ago that 'salmon paste' had to have at least 15% salmon in it, whereas 'Fish paste - Salmon' - need have less than 5%?

Or something.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.

What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual facts of the matter.

[F Murtz]

Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just alterations in old places)

This is soft solder sometimes containing silver This is not the silver solder I am referring to

I think it is a language problem There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and phosphor)

Here is a range.

This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods that have changed so long ago elsewhere.

I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and all over the place.

[polygonum]

You can buy similar products all over the place - but typically not specialist plumbing suppliers.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No. That is exactly NOT what you are referring to. Because that is NOT what plumbers use.

You cant weasel your way out of the fact that you claimed that plumbers use 'silver solder'

I.e whta we call hard solder. They dom not. They use soft solder.

No, you cannot believe that you don't know what you are talking about.

ALL plumbers everywhere in the world use soft solder. None use silver or 'hard' solder except in very high pressure work like radiators for cars or aerospace hydraulics. Or where there is a lot of mechanical stress. I don't call that 'plumbing'.

The fact that one Australian company has place soft solder containing some silver under the heading of 'silver solder' and you thought you were being clever, but are in fact being stupid by showing their sales brochure, is another matter entirely

No one uses copper phosphor alloys. For soldering. Because its not a solder.

That is a brazing rod composition. I.e hard solder.

Soft solder is sub 400C melting point.

Hard solder is > 400C melting point and is generally called 'brazing' or sometimes - because early hard solders and brazing rods ERE mainly silver - silver soldering.

Soft solders are what is used in electronics and 99% of plumbing. Tin lead solder is the best, but recent alarms over lead have lead to tin-copper with a little silver being substituted.

Hard solders vary enormously. from high sliver and gold for jewelry work, to copper silver and phosphorus for high temp brass and bronze joints.

They were developed in the UK, in Europe and in the USA ling before Australians even heard of brazing. Its seems they haven't heard yet actually. And think its the same as soldering.

Hence the confusion.

[F Murtz]

That is complete provable rubbish. Plumbers do use soft solder on occasion and always have BUT all in Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver phosphor alloy)For joining copper pipes extensively in normal water piping for residential and commercial for years I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old

[Andy Burns]

How much tin does Australia mine? Could it just be you have lots of copper/phosphor and silver is what makes those work in combination as a solder?

Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers.

Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too - sadly.

In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering.

It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems.

[F Murtz]

No I am talking about the first on this list