< snip stuff from Lord Hall >
He writes for the Torygraph. It was clear propaganda at getting at a perfectly sensible energy decision made by the government. Subtly attempting to make out they were incompetent.
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...our resident DIYing cabermaker is at it again....he says.........
This ng is not. The vast majority of boilers which people ask advise on are normal run of the mill efforts.
...our resident caberer ....said in a previous post....
"Mine managed over 10 years without being touched before it needed a clean. 'Sooting up' once it starts, happens very quickly."
...yes nice people, he didn't have his gas boiler serviced for over 10 years and thought it a good thing...and gives advice on boilers....yes he does. ....I wonder if the cabering has anything to do with it? Must have....must have.
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...another troll?
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In my experience (having had Jeff Howell visit my house to look around my loft conversion and interview me for a Radio 4 prog a while ago) I would not quite describe him as an idiot. Sure he is an "ex builder" but he seemed to have an element of common sense about him, at least on building projects.
Not sure whether he is an expert on boilers though - looking at his piece on condensing boilers he does seem to have got a bit out of his depth. My "high tech" Eco Hometec boiler (as recommended by your former self - thanks again) is packed with electronics and sensors but in principle it is very simple. And reliable so far. Certainly doesn't need servicing "every 6 months"! "Cadmium and cobalt" ... hmmmmm.
Regards, Simon.
A Google of an earlier piece on him....
Jeff Howell is a know-it-all jack-of-all-trades pillock, who has made a name for himself in crap newspaper prattling ill-informed garbage most of the time.
Let's see what the fools says....
"At its most basic, a boiler is simply a kettle. It is a cast iron vessel, with a burner underneath it. We've had boilers like this for 30, 40, 50 years. And in some cases those original 50 year old boilers are still working very well,"
"In order to get this extra alleged 15% of efficiency out of the new boilers, they become far more complicated. They are full of sensors, electronics, gauges and electronic ignition systems which makes them so complicated that they require a university engineering degree almost in order to maintain them."
Mr Howell is convinced these new boilers will fail quicker and use up more energy in their manufacture, maintenance and disposal, than might be saved during the boiler's working life. "New condensing boilers have to be maintained by a skilled engineer at least every six months. Every time the engineer comes, he drives his diesel van. He sits in the traffic trying to get to your house. These are all extra energy costs involved,"
Well... are they high tech or are they the results of the attempts of (especially UK) boiler manufacturers to dabble in electronics and seemingly high tech?
For example, when looking through a few old manuals, I noticed that on some products the elctronics board is positioned near the top of the case as are other components likely to be affected by heat.
This is pretty stupid for any design, but I'm more inclined to believe it's that rather than designed in failure.
I'm sure that Geoff can comment on the typical failure issues, but from what I read it's the same scenario as TV sets with certain components being the typical failure culprits.
I think that this is a pretty complicated issue.
- For an old RS boiler, what are you willing to spend on it to keep it in service? Some components like the basic sensors, thermocouples and perhaps even thermostats are cheap enough, but heat exchangers, burners and gas valves may not be. At a certain point these will fail and the repair cost, even on exchange won't make sense. Manufacturers withdrawing certain parts after a time may well skew that, although on simpler boilers some will be generic.
- If the comparison was between an older RS boiler and a more modern equivalent but of same basic technology, then there is a cost factor and the energy saving difference is not so great. Until recently, people were making the comparison in this way on the basis of paying the minimum amount for the new boiler.
- Now the game changes because the conventional products at the bottom of the SEDBUK range either go off the market or into much smaller production volumes to cover the exception cases. It's hard to guess how manufacturers will price the situation. They might treat older designs as an end of life cash cow and keep them at the same price or reduce them to move old inventory of parts. That would suggest a degree of incompetence because they should have been able to forecast a commodity better than that. Alternatively, the prices might go up because of smaller volume and on the argument of the market standing the price. After all, if you can get away with fitting a new boiler in an existing position and get exemption agreed to do so, you have saved installation cost vs. moving the position elsewhere. It's also hard to guess what will happen with condensing boiler prices now that they become the mass market product. Common sense suggests more competition and lower prices but who knows again?
- If you go for the very lowest possible cost in a new condensing boiler, it would not be all that surprising if the reliability and build quality is not as good as the mid to high end. So to be fair, you woulld have to compare the capital and repair costs of each vs. the low end existing product. I'm not convinced that comparing an entry level condensing product vs the old RS as many people will tend to do, will give the best overall outcome in terms of total cost of ownership. When I did my boiler exchange, it was from an old Glow Worm of about 60% efficiency which had been working reasonably but was starting to need replacement parts. I decided to take the view of going for a high end condensing model on the basis of build quality, reliability and features that improve comfort. I've been really pleased with the results so far.
- All of this ignores the energy saving. Most of the newer condensing products have energy efficiencies within a couple of percent of each other, and given the spread in measurement this is not significant. Therefore I think it is reasonable to do a comparison of energy saving figures. If the comparison is between an old 50-65% efficient boiler, then the improvement to 90-92% is substantial. I have measured a reduction in gas consumption of 25-30% for equivalent periods of outside temperature, so it is not unrealistic. However, if the comparison is from a later model RS in the mid 70% range, the saving is less.
- These two were my main basis of selection. One could also factor in the extrapolated saving over time with rising fuel costs, but this is really impossible over the expected lifetime, so I didn't do it.
- Another factor is whether ecological improvement is a factor for you. It is for me to an extent, but only after the other criteria line up. Another factor in my product selection, although not a large one, was that it has very low NOx and CO emissions. CO2 is a direct result of combustion and not a lot can be done about that.
That really would be nice, wouldn't it.....
There's nothing wrong with that as such. That land tax mate of yours writes for The Times, and that's not even a proper broadsheet any longer.
Let's be a little more honest here.
There is value in the use of condensing boiler technology.
The motivation for government policy on energy (any government) is based on political capital in a variety of spheres. It is traded like any other political capital. In this case, the government wins the political capital and the citizen pays. Again.
That is not to suggest that this move is not a good idea, but nobody should believe, unless they are very naive that it is motivated by altruism for the environment.
That doesn't require any form of subtlety at all.
And I said without the IMM bullshit.
You really are a prat. *Any* condensing boiler is high tech in this context.
But then you don't understand what technical means. Or probably high.
Interesting challenge -- let's try working it out.
We'll assume a condensing boiler is about 10% more efficient than a non-condensing one. (They actually do a bit better than this, but some of the gain is not purely due to condensing operation.) So a 25kW condensing boiler will be recovering around 2.5kW by condensing out the steam. Latent heat of vapourisation is 2260kJ/kg which is also 2260kJ/litre. So when running at 25kW, it will be producing just over a litre every 1000 seconds or about 4 litres/hour. Throughout the winter, my boiler is usually modulated down to around
7kW unless quite cold outside, in which case we're talking of nearer 1 litre/hour, and it's often less than this as the boiler will be cycling on and off even so. Also, not all the condensate leaves via the condensate drain -- some of it still exits via the flue to form the characteristic 'plume' of a condensing boiler.These figures sound about right, but doing this sort of calculation at 2am is not a particularly smart move. When I first installed my Keston, and I only had the upstairs heating circuit finished and working, I ran it overnight the first time with the condensate going into a bucket, so I could see how much there was. ISTR the bucket was something around half full in the morning.
Oh...
I need to have a boiler fitted shortly but had assumed that as I was going to miss the 1 April deadline for installing non-condensers I had no chance, and hadn't bothered pursuing the issue. (For various reasons I'd much rather a non-condenser here.)
I can't find anything on the ODPM's site about any leeway on the date, but are you saying it would be worth my while putting in a building notice for this? (Slight problem perhaps in that I will have the BCO round next week to inspect my new wall and solid floor, which will be in the same room where the boiler's going! which might put the kybosh on things (and I haven't bought a boiler yet either!)
30 hours to go - am I on to a loser here?!David
Take it back. Change it for a condenser. Much better.
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The best position is at the top at the side. Having it at the bottom means it may fail because of water leakage.
In theory a Minor 1000 car is simpler than a modern ECU fuel injected car. In practice the modern engine is far more reliable and fuel efficient and is in tune for most of the run time. The Minor 1000 falls out of tune within miles of a perfect tune up. The bottom line is that modern equipment is far more reliable than old hat filthy fuel sucking crap.
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Lord Hall, there is. It is not neutral in any way and has an agenda.
Who?
Yes we will, It was clear propaganda at getting at a perfectly sensible energy decision made by the government.
What tripe. Another Lord Hallism, it is a part of Kyoto and that is motivated by the...wait for it....the environment.
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...our halfwitted cabering person fires a salvo.....
...tsk, tsk, I hear you all tutting...... our caberer did not understand: " This ng is not. the vast majority of boilers which people ask advise on are normal run of the mill efforts."
...yes...very sad indeed.
...I sipped the rest of the garbled tripe for your convenience.....
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The level of condensate also depends on the moisture content of the air. Less in dryer climates.
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I disagree.
The best solution is to put it near the bottom and arrange the case design such that the board can't get wet if there's a leak.
So does every other newspaper. At least the Telegraph's is consistent. I should add that I don't buy printed newspapers but do get them free from the airlines.
I've forgotten his name now, because he and his ideas were of no consequence anyway.
It seemed to me to be more like Luddism than anything else. It certainly wasn't very effective as a getting at the government in terms of any energy policy as far as I am concerned.
You may wish to believe that.
The evidence is that it is all about politics and economics, with environment being the window dressing. Marketing in general, and especially window dressing, is the present government's major skill area.
No, Lord Hall. Water on the board may make it fail.
Many of the cases are open top and bottom, as is the W-B Grenstar. Some boards can be in the air intake supply flow cooling the board.
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Consistently bad it is.
The Labour Party have an LVT movement.
Another Lord Hallism....getting advanced technology to reduce pollution is Luddism? What a weird logic.
Was it motivated by the sale of spuds?
More Lord Hallisms. It cost more to clean the place up than to leave it to backward people. You may not of realised this being Lord Hall.
I suppose having the strongest economy in the world, the most successful economy on record and virtually eliminating unemployment has nothing to do with it at all. Tone and Gord have to get back in. Imagine the shambles if Dracula and Boris were in charge! I shudder to think!
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That depends on your perspective. As I say, I don't buy the paper.
Lovely.
It would be if that is what I had said. The (obvious) point wsa that Howell was making comments from a Luddite perspective.
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