I have purchased a new Worcester Bosch Highflow 400 combi boiler, and this was due to be installed this week (prior to the new regulations coming into place on 1 April). My plumber has been sick for two weeks and is running two weeks late, so is not able to install until the week beginning 12 April now. I've tried to get another plumber to do it, but they are all busy due to the new regulations starting next week, and those that aren't want to charge more than double what my plumber has quoted (one quoted over =A32000 for the installation !!). Am I going to run fowl of the regulations if I delay this for a week ? How will anyone know when it has been installed ? Thanks.
From what you say, you've already purchased the boiler - so you'll have a pre-April purchase receipt. Since the delay is due to your plumber, get him to complete any installation paperwork with a March date - and there will then be no damning evidence!
The log-book thing that comes with the boiler now has to be completed by the CORGI plumber who installs it, so if you're going down that route, you might first want to check that your plumber is going to be happy to comit fraud on your behalf!
Maybe he could complete the paperwork with the correct date, and then, oops, you carelessly lose the paperwork!
But presumably with the new rules, it will actually be illegal for a corgi to even fit a non-condensing plumber after 1 April? So in theory at least, the OP's boiler will be officially be a white elephant if not comissioned within the next couple of days?
If you take a look on the ODPM (2jags) web site in the Building Regulations area, you will find, quite well buried, documents on the rules for exceptions for mandatory fitting of condensing boilers.
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is a points system based on location, existing situation etc. If you score more than N points, then the installer can fill in a form and fit a non-condensing model instead.
I plugged a few examples into this and found it would be possible to achieve exemption if (for example) the existing boiler is a back boiler in the centre of a house and there is no space in the kitchen.
For installations in most locations, it's difficult to achieve the exemption points which is the intent.
Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating. I have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.
The idiot says: "At its most basic, a boiler is simply a kettle. It is a cast iron vessel, with a burner underneath it. We've had boilers like this for 30, 40, 50 years. And in some cases those original 50 year old boilers are still working very well," he says.
"In order to get this extra alleged 15% of efficiency out of the new boilers, they become far more complicated. "
This is balls, they haven't.
"They are full of sensors, electronics, gauges and electronic ignition systems which makes them so complicated that they require a university engineering degree almost in order to maintain them."
More balls. A non-condensing system boiler is very similar.
"Mr Howell is convinced these new boilers will fail quicker and use up more energy in their manufacture, maintenance and disposal, than might be saved during the boiler's working life. "
Mr Howell is prattling total balls again, with no facts to back up pick and spade experience.
"New condensing boilers have to be maintained by a skilled engineer at least every six months."
One year servicing like every other boiler.
"Every time the engineer comes, he drives his diesel van. He sits in the traffic trying to get to your house. These are all extra energy costs involved,"
More idiotic balls.
"Anything that has electronics in it is going to require more energy costs in dismantling and disposal of it. Printed circuit boards all contain toxic materials, for example, and you'd have to spend extra energy in separating out the cadmium and the cobalt and the other heavy metals."
This guy is in cloud cuckoo land. he should stick to the spade.
"If you're talking about sustainability in building, then the most sustainable thing is to keep what you've got,"
More garbage, as replacing an old cast-iron boiler with a condesning boiler can save 40% in fuel
"Not surprisingly, the German firm Vaillant - one of the biggest makers of condensing boilers - does not share Mr Howell's views."
"If you were to ask any manufacturer, you would typically get the response that annual servicing of any gas appliance is a very good idea to ensure it's operating at peak efficiency and to ensure there are no issues developing during the course of the intervening year," says Vaillant's marketing director, John Collins. "
Mmm, one year servicing. Where is this 6 months this idiot was on about.
"Condensing boilers don't require any more maintenance than any other type of boiler. Typical servicing requirements are exactly the same for both. And the only difference really with a high-efficiency condensing boiler is it has a condensing drain."
"It's because it's cooling the products of combustion down to a much lower level, the water vapour contained in those products is condensed out in the boiler itself and so there is a small drain in the boiler to allow that condensate water to be piped away to a convenient drain in the house. Part of the service would be to ensure that drain was clear."
"As a company we are very much geared to looking to the future and looking to rationalise the use of energy by every possible technology."
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Howell is a well known nay-sayer who bases his pronouncements on the first generation condensing boilers produced by UK manufacturers nearly a decade ago. These were mainly designed by adding bits to existing designs which were not suitable for the purpose and were of generally poor engineering and build quality.
Sadly, the worst culprits were the erstwhile brand names in the UK boiler industry.
Meanwhile, manufacturers in Germany and Holland especially have been making and selling condensing boilers in their markets successfully and reliable for over 15 years and are now on their 3rd or 4th generations.
It's no coincidence that most of the UK boiler industry has been acquired by German manufacturers and new models introduced based on their designs and components.
The reality of the situation is that most newer designs of boilers, be they condensing or not, have boards of electronics. Given a proper design, there is nothing to suggest that the electronics in a condensing product is more likely to fail than one in a non condensing one. Furthermore, increasingly the designs and components used have converged, such that the only remaining major differences are the provision of condensate collection and disposal.
Many of the older non condensing designs with simple components disappeared a few years ago anyway with the first mandatory increase in efficiency, so the types to which Howell refers are largely no longer on the market anyway. His comments about service are also untrue.
I'm afraid that this is a poor example of journalistic hype.
Howell? This one is an idiot. A builder who know all about heating. I have never met one. The heating industry laugh at him.
BTW, this same 'idiot' as you desribe him, was the one who correctly advised folk not to be persuaded by 'the heating industry' that their boiler would have to be replaced because no parts were available. He correctly pointed out that the vast majority of boilers could still be repaired, since parts were available.
Sounds like you are from 'the heating industry' and have a mighty huge axe to grind. You seem pretty damn keen to insult those with different opinions to your own.
I'm thinking of getting a new boiler and my concern is the drain. How much water do these boilers generate? I'm planning to have the boiler on a wall but there's no drain outside for the water to run into, only a gravel path.
I'm thinking of getting a new boiler and am concerned about the drain. Where it will be fitted, there is no drain outside, only a gravel path. How much water do these boilers produce?
I wouldn't have put it in quite the way that he has, and one has to wonder whether he's in any industry at all, but I agree with our friendly neighborhood Norsk character on this one.
If you do the research, you will discover that Howell is at best out of date with his comments and certainly misleading.
Obviously use of changes in legislation is a marketing opportunity for the boiler manufacturers and one shouldn't be taken in by that but planned obsolescence is hardly new either.
When checking into this, I looked at sources of information in Germany and where the technology has been in use for a lot longer and products better engineered that the UK manufacturers have produced in the last ten years.
Of course the situation is not quite as rosy as Vaillant claim, but broadly their comments are in line with the long term experience in other countries.
I find their position a lot more convincing than that of Howell who seems to have missed several important points and got others quite wrong;
The volume produced depends on the operating conditions. The largest production rate is when the boiler is heating from cold under full power.
Also, it is typical for a condensing boiler to modulate down rather than switching off which also has an impact.
Generally, the rate is a steady drip (perhaps one every few seconds) up to a small trickle - perhaps up to a bucketful a day.
The main issue is that the condensate is mildly acidic at around pH4 (mainly being carbonic acid).
Really this does need to go to some type of drain because it will mark paths etc.
Could you run a pipe to a drain inside the house? Distance is not too important as long as there is a slope. Alternatively, a gravel soakaway could probably be used.
An idiot is an idiot and Howell is one. He wrote complete crap. Complete! He clearly did not have a clue what he was on about, never mind have any data to back his rambling. Yet people, like you, actually believe this turkey, because he writes for the Torygraph.
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While this is true, this newsgroup is full of the problems with 'high tech' boilers - and by default, the costs of fixing them.
It would be interesting to see an accurate run down of the fuel savings against the extra capital costs - and servicing and repairs - against a well designed older basic electric RS model.
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