Building regs

[Tony Wood]

I'm intending to have an extension that makes 2 or our existing rooms a bit bigger, and in the corner of one of them knocks up a couple of interior walls to create an ensuite.

Just had a builder in to get a quote and he's told me something I think is REALLY weird and was wondering if anyone has any experience of it...

Apparantly, the building regs people will insist that my existing battery powered smoke alarms are replaced with a mains based system. Even though they are not in or near the work we are doing.

Is this right? It sounds just mad? How can they come in to give building regs approval for some work and insist that other parts of my house are changed?

Anyone?

Tony.

[G&M]

Is there a separate flat ? Or lodger ? Or three floors ?

[Tony Wood]

In message , G&M writes

Nope. 2 storey 4 bed detached house. Extension building on top of an existing extension to give us a bigger bedroom & ensuite, extending a room at the back of the garage out a bit to provide a utility room. No lodgers (unless you count my Wife or 2 young children!)

Tony.

[Lurch]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:25:07 +0100, Tony Wood strung together this:

Depends. I've done quite a few jobs where this has been the case, and I've also done a few where it hasn't. Sometimes it's the bbuilding regs, sometimes it's the over excited architect with his new set of pens.

Anything with the word 'regulation' in it usually is a bit mad.

[G&M]

Then unless the area under change has a particular high degree of fire risk (no opening windows or doors perhaps so you have to escape through the rest of the house) the part B regs at most apply to the extension but not the rest of the house. These regs do specify interlinked mains alarms but if it is one room a single mains fire alarm in that room is all that is required.

[Hugo Nebula]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:25:07 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named Tony Wood randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Building Regulations don't just cover the work you're carrying out; they look at how that work affects other parts of the same building, and even other buildings.

Generally, if you're not increasing the number of storeys, or significantly increasing the number of rooms or the travel distances, then there is no requirement to provide a mains-wired detection system if there isn't one already. It's possible sometimes to provide m/w s/d as a compensatory feature if the fire safety of the building is less than satisfactory in some other way (such as an unprotected stair or inadequate alternative escape windows).

I say generally, because I know some authorities take a stricter interpretation of the Regulation than others, and view _any_ increase in the number or even size of the bedrooms as making the building more unsatisfactory in terms of means of escape than it was before.

Have you just taken your builder's word for this? Check with your local council's Building Control section. He may have either misinterpreted the requirements, or may be angling for additional work.

[Tony Wood]

In message , Hugo Nebula writes

Fair enough - I already have two battery powered smoke detectors up, which I'd have thought would be sufficient protection. Just not the mains variety.

Oh I don't intend to just take his word for it - I posted the question pretty much immediately after he'd left which was after closing hours on Friday night - I'll definitely be checking up on it 'cos it just seems bonkers to insist on this sort of thing when I've already got perfectly satisfactory detectors that I can temporarily shut up when I've burnt the toast - the last mains powered ones I was unfortunate enough to come across wouldn't shut up even when I was simply attempting to grill Fish Fingers - and no, I wasn't burning them! ;-)

Cheers,

Tony.

[Lurch]

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:07:09 +0100, Tony Wood strung together this:

If you do need to have the mains variety fitted you can get them with hush buttons. Have a look around

for the Ei151TL, under the heading of mains 150 alarms.

[Tony Wood]

In message , Lurch writes

Nice one - I never realised that!

T.

[G&M]

I had a good re-read of the approved documents section B last night after your post and I notice that battery powered alarms seem to be ignored totally. I notice the regs refer to fire detectors, not smoke detectors, quite a bit as well so I went to Wickes to see what they offer. No mains powered devices at all. Screwfix only have commercial property stuff. Will try B&Q and a couple of builder's merchant stocking electrical gear tomorrow.

I wonder if we have another "CORGI" closed shop here that needs breaking up.

[Andy Hall]

We'll soon find out.

In all of the other areas where self certification schemes are in use, there is only one for each trade.

Clearly these cosy monopoly arrangements should be broken up and trades people given the choice of which organisation that they wish to use, if any. This would represent a real choice for consumers.

It is interesting to note that there 8 additional applications to those submitted by NICEIC.

I wonder how many of them will be approved and who will be paying for the beer and sandwiches for jag+=2;

I'm pretty sure that I know the answers to those questions already.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[G&M]

Don't mind how many self-certification schemes there are as long as there is a clear "just me and the BCO" route available. It shouldn't have taken the threat of a court case at the European Court for the right to install gas yourself safely under BCO control to be made available. Same with pressurised hot water (i.e. normal European) systems.

Didn't really mind on my oil boiler (once I found somebody) as his cost of commisioning was less than hire of gas analyser but if I had hired the stuff I would expect my BCO to understand what was going on or get somebody who does at his expense.

But as my BCO's grasp of even basic physics is poor to say the least, what chance have I of him understanding what is and isn't safe electrical practice. He first tried to insist on me submitting full plans (I always use a building notice), then on talking to my architect (which I don't have), then to a professional engineer, at which point I told him quite bluntly I am a professional engineer and you'll talk to me !!

Me and my BCO don't have a happy relationship :-)

[Toby]

For Part P:

" The Government has accepted the recommendation and has approved schemes to be operated by BRE Certification Limited, British Standards Institution, ELECSA Limited, NICEIC Certification Services Limited and Zurich Certification Ltd. These schemes are aimed at those carrying out electrical installation work as the primary activity of their business. "

Maybe the Zurich one might end up the best bet for self builders?

[Steve Firth]

That would be a really stupid idea where I live, mains fails at least once a month. Often enough to make it worth my while having a standby generator and several UPSs.

[Lurch]

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:20:09 +0100, [e-mail] (Steve Firth) strung together this:

I think you'll find that it's with battery backup, won't be a problem unless you're regularly off for days.

[Lobster]

Also (and maybe more easily?) available from Screwfix - ref 10347.

NB when selecting and wiring your alarms - you can either wire them on a completely separate circuit from the consumer unit, or (probably more practically for most people) from an existing circuit BUT if the latter, they need built-in battery backup - some models don't.

I totally sympathise with your BCO issues - am having just the same problem with mine (see the ongoing thread "Query;Upvc DG and building regs"). I've now moved on to 'means of escape' windows, but have already been down the smoke alarm road - the BCO decided I needed them, interlinked, after visiting for several inspections, she waited until after I'd finished rewiring and the plasterer had finished skimming all the walls and ceilings.

David

[Lurch]

On 4 Jul 2004 09:24:36 -0700, [e-mail] (Lobster) strung together this:

I wouldn't bother, they're cheap crap in comparison to the Ei ones.

[G&M]

With the brand somebody referenced yesterday it would be as the backup batteries were not rechargeable.

[G&M]

Statutory Instrument 2531 (the Building Regulations) states :

Means of warning and escape B1. The building shall be designed and constructed so that there are appropriate provisions for the early warning of fire, and appropriate means of escape in case of fire from the building to a place of safety outside the building capable of being safely and effectively used at all material times.

There is no mention here of interlinked mains alarms. These appear in the Approved Documents as one solution to meeting this requirement. But other approaches (e.g. lots of loud battery alarms perhaps) are equally valid but need to be discussed and accepted by the BCO. Too many of them seem to take the Approved Documents as gospel and the only way of doing things which is simply not the case.

[Lurch]

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:55:19 +0100, "G&M" strung together this:

Well, I can only see 2 references to actual detectors, the Ei ones I mentioned which have a recdhargable lithium cell and the cheapo Screwfix ones. As I said in that part of the thread, avoid the Screwfix ones as they're inferior.