building control and kitchen requirements

[neil leslie]

The previous owner of my flat blocked up the origianl kitchen door that gave entrance to the kitchen from the hall and made entry from another room [a room that I will use as a bedroom]. My plan is to block up the new doorway and open up the original door once more. I have presented plans to Building Control at my local council. They seem to be ok with the door being replaced but the problem, and I did not see this coming, is with the layout I propose for the refit of the kitchen. The kitchen is tiny, about 5 ft by 7 ft, and Building Control say I should have unobstructed access to the window for cleaning. This scuppers things as I can't have my sink or any base unit in front of the window. None of the kitchen planners I've had plans from pointed this out and the vast majority of kitchens I've been in do have units/sinks in front of the window. Suggestions as to how to proceed most welcome.

[IMM]

This is balls. If this was so, few new houses would have kitchens.

Why did you go to building control? Block up a door which already has a lintel and opening up an old door which I assume already has a lintel is not structural and a minor affair. I am surprised they were interested. In new houses it is near impossible to clean kitchen windows unless you are 7 foot tall and can lean over the units and reach the top of the window. A small foot ladder gives access to the window for just about everyone.

[Christian McArdle]

That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. Have you ever seen a kitchen with space in front of the window? The sink is almost invariably chosen to sit in front of it.

Christian.

[neil leslie]

I contacted Building Control to see if I needed their consent as I was concernred about selling the flat in years to come if I made any alterations without permission.

[Christian McArdle]

Having looked at Building Regulations Approved Document Part N3, you need to ensure that the window controls are no higher than 1.7m from the floor if you have kitchen units of standard height and depth in front of it. Alternatively, you can install a remote operating system.

Part N4 indicates issues for cleaning the outside of the windows. Is this the issue? If so, how high up is your flat? Does the window rotate round for cleaning? Is there somewhere hard to place a ladder?

Christian.

[neil leslie]

I have the original sash window in the kitchen so the bottom half opens for cleaning and the top half slides down for cleaning but does not rotate inwards. The window has handles that are less than 1.7m from the floor but the top half has a latch that is above 1.7m

The flat is on the second floor. There is space to place a ladder, just.

In my initial telephone calls with Building Control they said that given the age of the property [about 1890] my watch words were to be 'don't make it any worse than it already is' but I guess this is open to interpretation.

Christian McArdle wrote:

[Christian McArdle]

Technically to comply with modern standards, you'll need to replace the latch with something less than 1.7m high or have some remote method of opening (i.e. Mighton powersash). However, whether or not you need to comply with modern standards is another issue. Fixing it to comply is serious overkill.

In any case, just submit the building application to move the doors. You can fit the kitchen after the door work has been signed off.

Christian.

[BigWallop]

The requirement to be able to clean the window only means that you can't put anything in front of it that will block its movement or be restrictive to physical access. It doesn't mean you can't put anything in front of the window that will mean you have to hop on top of it and swing the window in to clean the outside.

As long as you can physically reach both the outside and inside of the window so you can clean it, and without putting yourself or others in danger while doing so, then you can proceed with your plans to fit your new kitchen units and sink.

[IMM]

Alterations? You are putting it back to the way it was. You are unaltering the place.

[Peter Taylor]

neil leslie wrote

Building Control are wrong - if you have any problems with them ask them to quote which Regulation they are applying. The Regulations are as follows:

Safe access for cleaning is covered by Regulation N4. The Regulation clearly states it does NOT apply to dwellings.

Safe access for opening/closing is covered by Regulation N3. With a kitchen unit or other obstruction not more than 900mm high below the window, the window operating handle must be no higher than 1.7m above floor level. It can be 1.9m if there is no obstruction.

HTH Peter

[Peter Taylor]

IMM wrote

Ignore this Neil. You did the right thing.

Peter

[IMM]

What? filling in few couses of bricks and taking away a few courses. the same bricks can transferred from hole to hole. No load bearing whatsoever. Should he contact them to put up a shelf too?

[RichardS]

Ye gods, this is just plain crazyness!

As others have said, if your window handle is >1.7m then you could split the door moving and kitchen refit into two distinct and separate projects. AFAIK a kitchen refit doesn't require building regs!

If BC won't accept that, or it is impractical to move the door without knobbling your present kitchen, then you could always fit a sacraficial cheap-as-chips kitchen that does not impede the window - site the sink just to the left or right if possible. You ought to be able to pick up some dreadful affair for a couple of hundred quid.

Then, after the work is signed off you can decide that you hate the new kitchen and refit with the one you originally wanted... May be a worthwhile extra cost to get exactly what you wanted, and you have the BC signoff for the alteration work.

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

[BigWallop]

You need your wrist smacked for suggesting something like that, when it's a lot easier to ignore the stupid BC guy that even suggested the requirement in the first place. As long as you can reach the window and be able to open it fully for cleaning, and not put yourself or others in danger while doing so, then there is nothing to stop you putting anything in front of the window that is easily removed to allow you in to clean it.

You can even place a huge cupboard in front of the window if you wanted, and thing only thing you'd have to prove is that it is easily removed from that position and allows you in to the window so you can open it up and clean the outside.

If you fixed units below the height of the inner sill, then you have to prove that the fixed units will bear the weight of someone climbing onto and sitting down on them for purposes of cleaning the window. Which, if installed correctly, most kitchen units and worktops will do without any problems.

You may have to check which taps you buy for the kitchen sink, and where the taps are positioned in relation the fully opening part of the window though. Some mixer taps with single spouts may encroach into the window opening area and prevent fully opening it, but this is easily remedied by making the window itself rise higher so it clears the top of the taps.

[Peter Taylor]

BigWallop wrote

Forget this. As I said before, the Building Regulations contain NO requirements for access for cleaning windows in dwellings.

[BigWallop]

They do under Scottish Requirements. To have dirty windows is against the health and hygiene laws.

[RichardS]

sorry, I think I misread your post when suggesting that!

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

[neil leslie]

[Hugo Nebula]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:44:10 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named neil leslie randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

AINAnExpertInTheScottishRegs, but I've just looked 'em up, and the bit about safe cleaning [1] says "in a building of purpose group 1 [2], any window or part of a window more than 4 m above the adjacent ground must be constructed [3] so that its external and internal glazed surfaces can be safely cleaned from - a. inside the building; or b. from a loadbearing surface; or c. a window access system mounted on the building".

[1] Part P2.3 [2] Dwellings, including flats (Part A, Schedule 3) [3] "CONSTRUCT includes alter, erect, extend and fit" (Part A)

[RichardS]

So, arguably, a properly operational sash window should satisfy requirement a).

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk