Boiler probs

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I said that I sold a property easily vs. one with DG etc. that was not in as good a position and did not have as nice a kitchen. I said nothing about buying.
My comment was as anecdotal as yours.

.andy
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The one with the nicer kitchen.
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wrote:

one
price.
You didn't read! It said "two well appointed identical houses in the same road".
A nice kitchen is over stated. A lot of people assess that a new kitchen is going to cost 6-10K, or whatever, so are prepared to fit their own in after buying, to their own design and all brand new, if the rest of the prime points of a house are attractive.
I personally would rather have a sound house with tatty bathrooms and kitchen and replace these, as soon as moving in. Nothing worse than a tatty bathroom and kitchen that someone else has used for years.
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Whoosh!
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[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
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Yes, John, if there were absolutly no other factors, then the insulation would make a difference to the sale. Outside of this hypothetic world (where there are two identical properties: same layout, same decoration, same seller, same agent, but with different insulation) insulation is not a very important factor in whether a house sells, or for how much.
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wrote:

same
No one buys a house because it has 300mm of cellulous insulation in the loft. The running costs are the point though. Show them the difference in bills and that it was due to insulation (not some miser keeping the heating off) and they will take notice. No one wants to pay an extra 500 a year at current rates, which could be even larger in the not too distant future.
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I would view that very suspiciously because it makes little improvement over 200mm in the total context of the house energy requirement. More to the point, somebody that does that to a house that wasn't designed for it has probably blocked off all the ventilation as well and created the conditions for timber decay.
It would ring the same alarm bells for me that spray on rafter insulation would.

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wrote:

Nonsense. Cellulous insulation make the bedroom to loft air tight. Cellulous insulation also is the equivalent of mineral wool that is 25% thicker.

More nonsense. A cold roof has eves ventilation. There should be no air transfer from bedrooms to loft. None at all.

Totally different products. Cellulous insulation is heavily used in eco houses.

heating
at
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.

That was not my point. It was of situations that I have seen where people have crammed the roof space with insulation and effectively stopped the air flow from the eaves.
It's the same mentality that seals the rest of the house hermetically and then wonders why they are getting condensation.

I wasn't referring to the product but the mentality of its use
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wrote:

You are looking at a cowboy job as regarding this as the norm.

You have the mentality that all insulation fitters are cowboys.
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That wasn't it. I meant well intentioned DIY jobs where people have stuffed insulation into the eaves and the timbers are soaking with condensation.

That is not what I said either. I certainly think that the spray on foam technique and its purveyors are questionnable because it is marketed as a means of holding the roof material on rather than repairing it properly. Since the timbers are then covered up, it makes survey inspection impossible. I would walk away from any property that had had this done.
I'm all for doing proper energy management and insulation, but the notion of putting ever increasing amounts of insulation in lofts and ignoring the walls is ridiculous; especially in existing properties.
The law of diminishing returns is important here.
Adding insulation to a wall cavity takes the U value from 1.5 to 0.5 which is highly significant. Adding insulation in a loft to take the U value from 0.2 to 0.1, especially when the areas are considered is of very little value in comparison,

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That is very different to spay on cellulous.

What strange logic!

A normal house is split into two halves a top half and a bottom half. In then top half, insulating the loft to the best you get using cellulous insulation is well worth it. Say 300mm. the Centre of Alternative Technology say 350mm is the optimum, their book, The Whole House Book covers this. So in the top half of a house their is a highly significant ceiling area that can be easily and cheaply insulated via the loft. My loft is well insulated and even recently in -2 temps, most of the time the TRVs were fully off. In winter it is nice and snug in the upper rooms and in summer nice and cool. A win, win situation.
Looking at the whole house when assessing insulation levels is very misleading. Loft insulation is easy and cheap and can be DIYed, unlike say cavity wall insulation. Do you understand it better now? I doubt it.
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If it hides the roof structure so that it can't be inspected then that is not a good idea.

Just simple physics of heat transmission and economics.

You can use alternative technology if you like. I prefer to stick to with the economics and proven technology.

Likewise, and with only 150mm of insulation. The difference between 150mm and 300mm of insulation in terms of total energy saving isn't significant. It would almost cost more in petrol and environmental impact to go to B&Q to buy the stuff.

There's nothing to understand. You can bluster and alter the rules as you go along as much as you like, but it doesn't alter basic physics.

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Look at, which you need to look at: http://www.warmcel.com /
Cellulous insulation is made from old newspapers. It is used as part of breathing walls. As I said, which didn't sink in, it is used by most eco home builders. It is not plastic based.

No strange logic.

How British! How 19th century! Read the book!! Don't guess as usual. All is there. If our snotty uni man had read it first he wouldn't have a Heath Robinson house with a screwed up heating system.

well
summer
It is. BTW, 300mm of cellulous insulation is equivalent to near 400mm of mineral insulation.

Nonsense. Read "EcoHouse - A Design Guide". They say there is NO upper level in insulation. As fuel gets more expensive, global warming takes hold, with hotter summers (insulation keeps a house cool) and colder winters, superinsulation is cost effective, and much sooner than you think. And our resident estate agent will then understand the issues and sell accordingly.

say
There is and you don't understand it.

You were on about economics!!! Physics? No one is questioning that insulation keeps heat in, in winter, and heat out in summer.
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Ah, you mean cellulose......
Did you build the web site as well? I notice that whoever did can't spell 'separate'.....

They would do wouldn't they. This is all based on dogmatic idealism and has nothing to do with the real world.

I am sure that Richard sells what people will buy.
If you believe that what you are saying is a saleable proposition to the average buyer then why not set up in business as an eco-estate agent? You could spend time educating the great British public on these matters, convincing sellers to superinsulate their houses and buyers to pay more for them. I would be interested to see whether you would still be in business after a few months. I rather doubt it, because I don't believe that people see the value in or are experiencing the pain of what you are trying to sell. Until either or both of those happen this remains a theoretical exercise.

If you add the notion of applied physics and engineering then you apply the technology where it is economically sensible.

.andy
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I can spull sepirate.

It is not. It is based on real technology proven in the field.

think.
When it happens he will, and much sooner than you think.

Good idea. One problem. Most of the UK housing stock is far too old, with most of it deserving the bulldozer. There are too few eco houses around to make a living I'm sure. Come back in 10 years time and I'm sure Richard will have an eco homes section.

I should, but greater authorities than me are already doing this. The people are eco aware and are getting better at it. They realise the value of double glazing and insulation in the loft. Many are aware of the value of condensing boilers and when a Minimum SEDBUK of 86% is out, they will be fully aware.
< snip drivel >
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.. snd is called 'alternative technology'. Generally this is a label used for things that are academically interesting but not commercially viable.

Oh, I think that it will happen relatively soon but as a result of political tinkering, not because of scientific or economic reasons.

The existing housing stock is an economic reality, and there is no politically acceptable way of changing that situation at any great speed.

He might well, but that's 10 years away.

I think that that is stretching it. The government is having to legislate new standards in order to be seen to be doing something towards meeting the Kyoto political targets.
There's nothing wrong with the principle of reduced CO2 emission and similar factors, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that any of this is anything other than politically motivated.

They realise about double glazing because the DG firms plant people in the entrances of DIY sheds and supermarkets and canvas door to door.

Some people are clearly aware of the technology, but obviously not enough or the proportion of sales would be higher. I agree that condensing boiler technology is desirable, but it should be sold on economic arguments (which it can be), not via legislation.
The current government has grossly overlegislated to the point that many people are of the opinion that when something is it is because it is not in their best interest.

.andy
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wrote:> >> >Nonsense. Read "EcoHouse - A Design Guide". They say there is NO upper

When CAT was setup in about 1973ish, they added the term "Alternative", which is now mainstream. In the 1980s the "alternative " comedians are now mainstream. British mainstream construction technology is outdated to Scandinavia and North America. The most inventive nation in history is Britain. Yet tell me one major innovation the British have added to construction over the past 50 years? err, err, errr? Keep thinking.
We are stuck in the past. Yet there are beacons of hope in the likes of CAT in Wales and BedZed in Surrey.

You mean Two Jags laying it on the line to the 19th century minded rip-off construction industry? Great man. Takes no crap! What we need. He is not impressed by some Oxbridge parasite giving a presentation on behalf of the construction industry. Cuts no ice with the man.

Yes forced by the 1947 Town & Country Planning act, to keep the super rich, rich, and the rest of us in cardboard boxes.

Two Jags has the right idea. Change or I will force you too. New Labour is in for a generation at least, so Two Jags will around if they take the piss. They better not with him around. The useless rip off construction industry is preying for him to go. My vote next time around goes to NL.

That is when it will probably mature. It is on the way there. The simple fact you heavily insulated your house indicated that.

It is not.

What you mean is that you want greater government action. So do we all.

Yes to reduce it. Duh!

So they realise it then. Duh!

You are foolish. Look at the UK construction industry. Way behind the best in the west. Way behind. Because it is so behind the government, with Two Jags, has to lay it on the line to them, to get heir act in order or else. That is shameful that the government has to step in to drag an industry forwards 60 years.

NO government wants to interfere with industry, unless it is not doing its job right.
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I've looked at houses in both Scandinavia and the U.S. They are not *that* innovative and when you talk to people about their views of their construction industry, thy also feel that it is pretty conservative.

I wouldn't use the word 'hope', but rather ideas that may one day be economically interesting.

He may be what you need if he takes no crap.

I'm not getting into that silly nonsense again.

Hopefully not..

You're moving to Holland? When?

I didn't. It was already done to a sensible standard.

No I don't. I would prefer greater government inaction by their being less government.

Through it being rammed down their throats, not for any economic, scientific or altruistic reason.

That depends on your definition of best. I travel extensively and do look at houses and construction on occasions. There are different methods and materials but these appear to be much more based on availability and tradition than one being better than or more advanced than another.

As in legislating around electrical safety when there is no issue that requires tackling for example?

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wrote:

idealism
now
All relative of course.

rip-off
rich,
Once again you don't understand. Sad but true.

He will.

industry
Are you on the same boat to Mars that Maxie and Jerry are on?

simple
Your house is 10 years old? Sensible standard? Please?

So you mean you want low specced, cold and damp houses. How sad!

Nonsense. Speak to anyone who has changed over from draughty single glazed to sealed double.

best
Do you break open the plaster and look behind?

You need to do some more research.

else.
its
The legislation is to get rid of cowboy operators, as what CORGI is doing.
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