Boiler isolator switch

Is there a problem with the electrical isolator switch for a wall-mounted combi boiler, being placed on the wall beneath the boiler, rather than to one side? It's been in the same place for decades.

I've got a guy coming around who suggested it was against regulations and needs to be moved.

He also said the lead pipe coming out of the gas meter was now illegal, and wanted to redo all the pipework, instead of just upgrading part of it. In fact, the pipe was copper when I cleaned off some of the tarnish. But would that lead pipe have needed to be upgraded? I got the feeling he was just making some of this stuff up.

Reply to
BartC
Loading thread data ...

If your existing installation was legal at the time it was installed it remains legal now. If you want to change something, chances are new regulations will apply. Why have you asked this guy to come round?

Nick

Reply to
Nick Odell

He was, on both points. Nothing wrong with a switch beneath a boiler, so long as it is accessible, and lead pipe is still on many gas supplies.

Reply to
A.Lee

The short answer is that the new boiler/pipes I had fitted a few weeks ago was by someone who it turned out wasn't gas-safe registered. (This despite advertising in the (I assumed) gas-safe sponsored panel in the local directory. I should have double-checked I know, but you never do.)

Although the work was shoddy, the main issue was of upgrading the gas supply pipe to the boiler. This new guy is registered, but seems more interested in generating extra work for himself. (He also said the boiler need to be A-rated to be legal; that at least I managed to find out myself: boilers have to be A or B-rated, and this one was B. Perhaps he was hoping I would get him to change it.)

Reply to
BartC

So...

First guy claims to be Gas Safe.

- Does not know regulations.

- Eg, regulations about receiving payment for gas work.

- So obtained money by deception.

Second guy claims to be Gas Safe.

- Creates fake regulation about socket location.

- Creates fake regulation that regulations are retrospective.

- Creates fake regulation that lead gas piping is illegal.

- Creates fake regulation about efficiency grading.

- So is going to obtain money by deception.

Difference is the latter has a "Gas Safe" label on his spurs. Find someone else.

Amusingly, whilst creating a fake regulation about location he might actually have missed that a switched socket has been used. Ideally you use an UNswitched socket so the boiler must be unplugged to force isolation. That is a trivial wiring accessory to change, and actually worth doing if anyone might knock the boiler switch off with counter top appliances, cutting boards or absent minded fingers.

What next, EC earth bonding around plastic piping (looks as funny as it is electrically), 16mm 6491X must be run to your shower upstairs (nice little earner)?

PS. How do you know the supply gas pipe sizing is wrong? Has he done the calculations to prove it is wrong?

Reply to
js.b1

Shame it isn't standard practice for tradesmen to give a written estimate including what they've recommended and why, and under which regulation they've insisted the work must be done. At least you'd have something to work with when you later find out they were lying.

Reply to
Mentalguy2k8

Well if they haven't given a written quote, they probably haven't given the

7 day cooling off period required under law or got you to sign a waiver so you don't have to pay them.
Reply to
dennis

I assume that you have reported this to Trading Standards and the Gas Safe people.

Reply to
David WE Roberts

Finding someone else is not so easy: they don't answer the phone; they don't turn up; or they're incompetent; or greedy. I've always had problems in the past with anything to do with heating or plumbing.

This engineer is supposed to be coming round Monday morning (if he turns up; I've already expressed my doubts about the pipe thing on the phone the other day). If I can persuade him to only do what's necessary, I might still use him.

The switch is a 'fused spur outlet' I think; it's not a socket. It does need tidying up, as the cable to the boiler is just coming out of a gap around the edge instead of through a proper hole. It's also got the wrong fuse. But I can take care of these details myself.

The installation manual says the supply pipe should be 22mm (although the inlet seems to be 15mm). I questioned the first guy about this, he said it'd be OK, and I went along with that because I thought he knew what he was doing.

Reply to
BartC

Maybe he knocked him out?

Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

I've spoken to the gas-safe people. And I will at some point contact the directory company and ask how it was possible for someone to advertise in the gas-safe panel, when they're not registered (and to also have a 'gas-safe' icon against their company in the on-line version).

However I'm more interested at the moment in having a safe, legal installation, than taking action against an individual (who could turn nasty).

Reply to
BartC

From other posts it sounds like at least part of the lead is undersized and needs upgraded. I suspect, like water, modifications to existing lead are no longer permitted making a complete or near complete replacement necessary.

Reply to
fred

Hence we have 50-70mm insulation, storage heaters, heat pump & south facing :-)

On the basis of that, just make sure you isolate the right circuit :-)

Re pipe size...

- Manufacturers instructions generally override everything

- However very short runs might be possible in 15mm

You design to ensure 21 millibar is available at each appliance at full demand, there should be a pressure test-point & isolation valve by the appliance to confirm this (relatively recent change).

Tables specify length X is possible in pipe size Y for demand Z, and every elbow costs you some of that length. The tables are fine (but small sizes like 10mm & 8mm are notoriously inaccurate at long lengths re pressure drop, not an issue here). Copper Association has a PDF which will give you a good background to this, as a consumer.

Yes I wish tradesmen had to specify works, why & cost out. It would get them more work in the end because people would trust rather than "paint is ugly, you need a new boiler".

Reply to
js.b1

You can remove lead.

- It can suffer crystallisation, and can festoon if hung on crampets.

- I suspect some minerals can eat into it, if very damp over decades.

You can only connect to lead if a suitable copper/brass termination exists. You can not add a new termination, you can not sweat a new joint.

If easy to replace the lead (all exposed) then do so. It melts in a fire, soldered joints tend to leak a lot less re 21mbar.

A National Grid Inspector said lead rarely worries him because there are no joints. What worried him was the copper modifications because recent ones tend to be poor (skill gone) and very aged ones can have very significant corrosion. Case in point, a copper run through a 1972 wall which is known to be damp, black mortar, cement packing, despite Denso Tape used to cause "green flashes in the gas fire flame". Only when the skirting was removed did the copper pipe disintegrate, it was like a medical gauze.

Very rarely lead can be block tin, which is very valuable if 10s of metres.

Plenty of lead gas incomers under the stairs in Victorian houses, that does make me queasy...

Reply to
js.b1

I haven't mentioned yet that the installation needs a landlord's certificate. So these things have to be done right (there's also a condensate pipe that's not connected to a proper drain).

However neither this guy, nor another engineer who quoted for the job (but in the end declined to turn up), nor the people at gas-safe, seemed to think the setup is actually dangerous. There's no gas leak, and a CO monitor shows

  1. It just needs the proper bits of pipe and the right paperwork.
Reply to
BartC

What I will say is that having any electrical accessories underneath a boiler is in my view not good practice.

The reasoning behind my view is that if the boiler springs a leak, you will have water dripping onto your electrical accessories which is not a good idea.

In every house I've ever owned, whenever I had a new boiler installed, if there was anything electrical under it, I always moved them as a matter of course before having the boiler installed.

The only exception to that rule is if there was a worktop seperating the boiler from the electrical accessory, such as in a kitchen. The boiler would be above teh work top, and there could be a dishwasher or a washing machine underneath the work top and there was a socket at the back.

Stephen.

Reply to
Stephen H

Its not ideal (e.g. if the boiler leaks), but not explicitly forbidden.

From BS6891 - 2005:

"8.3.3 Connecting lead composition pipes

When lead composition pipes are encountered and any connection joint has to be made, then only a soldered cup joint onto copper pipe or a suitable brass union fitting shall be made. Compression fittings designed for jointing water weight lead pipework shall not be used.

COMMENTARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS ON 8.3.3 It is essential that care be taken when soldering a joint onto lead composition pipework as blow lamps might provide too much heat at the joint. Lead solder should be used for this purpose. It is essential that joints be mechanically strong and gas tight."

So no mention of lead being removed...

The GSIR, prevents installation of new lead pipework however. See 5 (2)(a)

formatting link
and wanted to redo all the pipework, instead of just upgrading part of

Can you smell that? not gas, not horse, not donkey, must be bull!

Reply to
John Rumm

Now you know why many of us DIY ;-)

Some cable outlets do have the cable exit at the side and not through a hole in the face plate.

Most of them do have 15mm inlets...

What size (i.e. power) is the boiler?

Reply to
John Rumm

Might be worth clarifying that the 21mb is at the meter, you can drop up to 1mb through the installation pipework, so long as you can deliver

20mb or more at the appliance with the pipe under maximum load.
Reply to
John Rumm

The building regs are changing so that only A-rated boilers will be permissible. They may already have done so: it's something I registered is happening but not when as it doesn't affect me directly since I only install A-rated ones. (The B-rated ones were generally standard- efficiency designs with crappy secondary heat exchangers grafted on to drag them screaming and kicking into the 21st century, and hang the reliability, for the benefit for dinosaur manufacturers and installers terrified of change.)

Regarding the lead pipe (I assume it's just a foot or so between the meter and the fixed pipework) it's permissible to leave it in service if it's serviceable. If it needs to be disturbed in any way it would be very good practice at the very least to replace it.

Electrics beneath appliances full of water under pressure with multiple joints involved is a face-palmingly stupid idea but I don't think it explicitly falls foul of any regs.

Reply to
YAPH

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.