You *are* equiping the next generation of parents by intervening ! If you don't intervene with the children how is the decline ever going to be stopped ? It's indeed ironic that it's these ill-equipped parents have more children and therefore not to intervene is an escalating disaster.
Did you not read the story today about unqualified people working in the NHS ? Both the workers themselves and those employing them, owe you and me a duty of care. i.e. it's not just about them "satisfying their own needs " but exercising a responsiblity to their fellow man. If you believe this can be done by "policing" every human endeavour, then you are mistaken. It is both impractical and unaffordable. We have to instill a personal sense of responsibilty for the freedoms and rights others and that inevitably means curtailing your personal ambitions to some extent.
Yes, but *who* is going to intervene? Me, you, the next door neighbour, the teacher, the man with the clipboard from the council, the thought police? What are the rules of engagement? What is the procedure to get them to butt out?
We have already been down that track with incompetent social workers.
Equip the parents.
Perhaps a child licence as in China? Increased taxation for the larger family? Tax breaks for those who play the game?
Not yet. IMO, a significant proportion of people involved with the NHS aren't qualified to do the job required, even if they do have a piece of paper suggesting that they might be.
You would think so, wouldn't you, considering what we pay them to do it.
One's first responsibility is to oneself. If that is properly addressed, then there is no need to police every endeavour.
Of course, and inappropriate as well.
That is not correct. There is absolutely nothing wrong with personal ambition. The more that people feel empowered to think and act beyond self imposed glass ceilings, the more the total cake increases.
One should not think of personal ambition as being something that is to the detriment of others. That would assume that the cake is of fixed size, which clearly it isn't.
We agree about something then ! Paying people to have children is crazy.
When persuing this personal ambition - agreed there's nothing wrong with that - should one consider it's affect on others ? I firmly believe you should AlWAYS and that may curtail the possibilities.
I wont ever change my mind, because I believe the overall consequence of any act is more important than any personal ambition. I guess we just have different prioroties. Anyway what boiler do you think he should buy ???
At some point it isn't. Educating children to be parents? How would one do that?
This is why centrally derived methodologies seldom work. There are almost always unintended consequences and very often they have the reverse effect to the desired ones.
This is why it is better to reduce government involvement in peoples' lives and encourage them to make their own arrangements.
I actually haven't said anything different to that. You may remember that I made the point that one should be able to do what one chooses provided that it doesn't impinge on the equal right of others to do what they choose. If that curtails the possibilities, then it curtails the possibilities.
However, this does not mean that one needs to take into account all possible eventualities all the time. In extremis, one would never do anything just in case it might affect somebody who hadn't even been thought about.
Personal ambition is much more about wanting to achieve certain goals. The tricky part comes in how to achieve them. If it can't be via route A because route A unreasonably affects the next person, then one should look for routes B and C which may not rather than giving up and saying that the goal can't be achieved because the means to do so fell at route A.
The question then is what is the consequence and the degree? For example, I might want to run my table saw at 0700 on a Sunday morning because it suits my schedule for the day. However, my neighbour may be less enthusiastic. OTOH, I could run the thing on late Saturday afternoon when he is more accepting and still achieve my ambition of completing the project by Sunday night. That's a simple example to illustrate that it is reasonably straightforward to determine consequences for things that I can directly influence and that are closer to home.
Going to a different area where it is argued that one's behaviour should be influenced by issues alleged to be of a macro nature. There I tend to take a much harder line.
For example, we have had many debates about the use of low energy light bulbs and condensing boilers.
I dislike the light quality of fluorescent light bulbs and would not choose them. I become very much against the concept when presented with the argument that they can make a signifcant contribution to energy saving, CO2 emission reduction and planet saving. These are strings of small parts of small parts of unproven and unconvincing marketing. Dishonesty and selection of data abounds. The moment that there is a suggestion of government based compulsion to do or not do something is the point when one knows for certain that the arguments are bogus and thin. If I want to spend time, energy and money on trying to make a difference to something on a macro scale, there are far better places to direct attention - for example lobbying and campaigning for the building of nuclear power generation in order to address the energy supply issue as well as the CO2 issue (if indeed there is a CO2 issue).
The point is that there is appropriateness of action. My use of my table saw influences people within a few hundred metres of me. My attitude and focus to energy and ecology issues is much more towards where the large influences can be made rather than small incrementalism.
I am not sure that we do. On a large scale, we may have different outlooks on how to achieve the end goals.
Ah well. I can tell you what I did and why.
4 years ago, I replaced an ageing Glow Worm natural draught boiler which had become uneconomic to maintain - it had had a succession of spares replacements in the tens of pounds and it was clear that the build quality was poor.
Technology ~~~~~~~~~
I satisfied myself that the technology of condensing boilers available had advanced to the point that providing a good quality product, from a manufacturer with a track record in condensing boilers was chosen, the bogey stories about early failure and poor reliability were, well, bogey stories.
I looked also at the potential running cost savings in terms of gas use and made some lifetime projections. It appeared that from a starting point of a 60% SEDBUK efficient boiler, one could make a reasonable difference to gas consumption.
Control ~~~~~~
From my university degree work with control systems, I know something about the influences of various measurements, controls and components in overall behaviour. To that end, I looked at boiler control systems. It was clear that there are advantages in having the control of the boiler well integrated. For example, taking outside temperature into account is valuable in terms of influencing the power level of the boiler and when it should be changed. This also applies to the room and hot water cylinder temperatures. Conventionally, a room thermostat is a simple switch, with the slightly more sophisticated ones making a proportional on/off switching. Much better if the boiler control system knows what the temperatures actually are and can account for them in its algorithms. It is valuable to have actual measurements of outside temperature as a determinant component of when and to what level it should operate rather than having a room thermostat that is effectively guessing based on behaviour over several days. While having predictive start room thermostats is better than simple ones, having a means to actually measure is better still.
The second component of control is what does the control system do to influence the behaviour of the boiler? There have been boiler energy management systems for a while which essentially to on/off control of a switched live boiler. It is fairly well known that there is an efficiency cost associated with turning a boiler on and off, in part through overshoot of temperatures, additional loss of heat through the flue among them. The more frequently this is done, the worse the effect. Therefore, the idea of moduating the burner according to demand is a better one. A related factor is that of control of pump output according to demand. To a degree, these things can be achieved by bolting intelligent components together - e.g. use of a boiler measuring its water temperatures and incorporating some anticycling and a smart pump. However, these are not as effective as having an integration whereby the control system which has the actual environmental temperature measurements can also control the boiler modulation level as well as pump behaviour directly. This provides something much closer to a true analogue control as opposed to switched or pseudo-analogue signalling and control between sensors, control system and boiler/pump.
I looked at how that could be achieved. One way is used in commercial management systems. Essentially, a box external to the boiler controls it directly on a demand basis by means of a DC voltage, digital signaling or whatever, but the point being that the boiler is told to go to a certain operating level rather than just being told to switch on and off. However, these are relatively expensive in terms of the components and not easy to find for domestic sized boilers. I therefore started to look for products where the control system was integral to the boiler, able to control modulation and the pump but also to accept temperature value inputs from room, cylinder and outside temperature sensors.
System Design ============
Here I wanted to look at what else could reasonably be done to the complete system to improve comfort and operational economy. In that respect, there is an advantage in a boiler able to modulate down to a low output during the spring and autumn rather than switching on and off. Secondly, there was an advantage if the radiators would have sufficient output such that the boiler operating temperature could be minimised. This was actually quite easy to do. Many of the radiators were quite oversized, I moved some to new positions - i.e. large rooms to smaller and replaced a couple.
I looked also at whether the boiler operational parameters could be adjusted if required.
Build quality, reliability and servicability ===============================
After considering the advantages of an "analogue" control system with quite a bit of sophistication, I looked at the possible impact on reliability. The unititated sometimes argue that this would lead to greater failure. Having also done electronic and electromechanical system design in the past, I can see beyond that into the factors that really do make a difference. The major influencers here are the quality of the mechanical components used - gas valves, fans and the design, implementation and location of the electronic controls rather than there being an electronic control as opposed to a bimetal thermostat.
It's well known that manufacturers trying to cost reduce their products may choose cheap components. Inexperience with design may well lead to poor design decisions and implementations. Geoff makes a very nice business out of the repair and replacement of electronics boards and fans, and it is apparent enough that some makes and models lead to a higher churn rate of these than others, and not entirely linked to population.
So my conclusion here was to look at boilers with good build quality, check out the component manufacturers where I could and to look at the location of the electronics. For example, some manufacturers have electronics where water can drip on the board. Others have the board high up next to the heat exchanger. Intuitively, these are both bad design decisions.
Servicability and if need be redress, is one of my major purchasing criteria for almost anything. I would far rather pay a higher capital cost to achieve that and seldom buy on price apart from certain commodity items.
To that end, I looked carefully at the construction and servicing arrangements for a short list. I wanted solidly built products that would not take a fitter four hours to make a swap of a typical component, for example.
Conclusion =========
At the time, 4 years ago, I considered that none of the UK manufacturers had condensing products of a build quality or design that were worth considering, with the possible exception of Keston. Certainly the obvious manufacturers such as Potterton, Glow Worm and Baxi fell almost at the first hurdle. Expertise in terms of installation and servicing was also somewhat lacking for condensing boilers in the UK, although I was more concerned about the latter.
In terms of product experience, it was fairly clear that the best products would be of German and perhaps Dutch origin because the technology had been in use in these countries for some time.
From this I produced a short list of a few manufacturers including Vaillant, MAN, Viessmann and Keston. Worcester Bosch was initially consider too, but I was not happy about the aluminium heat exchanger concept as opposed to stainless steel.
Vaillant, while being a reputable and good volume manufacturer, didn't have the control facilities that I was looking for. However, I would add that for many people who are perhaps not as interested in this level of detail as I am, I think it would be a good choice. Keston was able to tick most of the boxes, although after looking at one, I was concerned about some aspects of the layout and design, which have subsequently shown up for people who have bought them. MAN and Viessmann have a lot of similarities in terms of functionality and both have very good build quality.
In the end, MAN ticked more of the boxes in that the Micromat has high build quality, pluggable components, electronics sensibly located, a very wide modulation range the ability to adjust operating parameters and also to log and monitor what the boiler is doing in order to facilitate adjustments. The distributor took the trouble to answer all of my questions in detail including how service arrangements work.
I should immediately add that Viessmann were pretty good as well, although it was rather harder to check out the component manufacturers and some of the other details I wanted to know. Therefore MAN got the business, but it doesn't mean that I think that Viessmann products are bad. Almost certainly they are very good. Viessmann did take the trouble to reply to several emails where I had asked questions but were unable or perhaps unwilling to answer them, in effect saying that I needn't worry because my installer would take care of it. After the decision was made, I emailed them explaining that this was the reason why they had lost the business. I received the remainder of my answers in an email reply. A shame, really, but eventually decisions had to be made. While how somebody operates before a sale is made is not necessarily a predictor of good service later, it is harder to predict later service if presales info is difficult to obtain.
If I was looking now, I would probably end up with the same shortlist. If I discounted the control system issues, which I can understand that not everyone would wish to consider, although it is plug and go, then I would include Vaillant in the mix. While some of the erstwhile UK manufacturers may have pulled their socks up or been aquired by German companies, in the context of a boiler of expected lifetime of 15-20 years, I don't think that they yet have the track record.
In terms of fuel use, I measured more over the first couple of years than I do today, although I periodically take measurements; there appears to be a good 20-25% drop in use, sometimes more. I haven't gone into the detail of the degree to which that is well designed condensing behaviour, modulation range or tight system control. Certainly the logs to the PC, when connected indicate very good control response for both the CH and hot water in the context of use and outside temperature.
Clearly this is not a boiler choice at the low end of the market. Pricing is north of £1000. If I were to cost it purely on a capital cost and fuel use saving financial aspect, it would be difficult to say whether it breaks even financially in its lifetime, simply because of the unpredicatability of fuel prices.
That would perhaps be more predictable if one were to go for a cheap boiler with perhaps a five year economic life, writing it down over that period.
However, I prefer to take a longer term view and to buy a product with a longer design lifetime and best functionality that I can get coupled with good quality such that it is unlikely to fail often during that period. If it does, then I am looking for quick and efficient service. Having invested the time and money up front, I am not expecting to have to do so significantly again for the next ten years. So far I haven't been disappointed.
Note that I have not mentioned the eco argument in this at all, mainly because I think it's weak. I don't have a warm fuzzy glow from having done my bit. Nonetheless, I do tend to feel that if one is going to take an eco view, then it should consider all of the aspects, including fuel and lifetime impacts and not just short term cost saving on fuel vs. capital cost.
I agree ! ;-) Especially with the last sentence, where I suspect the heating industry is letting us down quite badly, as regards longevity ! When my ageing Glow-worm finally bites the dust, Vaillant does seem to get good reviews from those with genuine experience.
MY main fuzzy feeling comes from lower gas bills and really that's why I prefer the lower population argument, not necessarily to "Save the planet", but so future generations can go on in the merry profligate manner we have become accustomed to, rather than worrying themsleves into an early grave.
I don't subscribe to that in its fullness. While I agree that parental attitude will have a massive impact on a child's learning, it is also true that given the right leaning environment there need not be finality to which you allude. I personally went to a secondary school where complete reversals of expectation and achievement were commonplace, and the successful transformation of many pupils who one would have placed in the "over" category happened so often it was expected.
I think this is a slightly different issue. What I call an educated 4 year old is one that gets on with other kids and wants to know everything, just in case it turns out to be interesting. I suppose you'd say open-minded rather than clever. Default settings one might say, but obviously absent in some kids. Interesting thing on the box recently suggesting that most of the human brain capacity is required to help us get along together, and the facts we accumulate in our education would probably fit on a modest SD card.
Hear hear! (although I do know some excellent child minders). The situation is worse nowadays since parents are paid loads of "tax credits" to get someone else to look after their kids - disgusting IMHO. People should look after their own kids, like "we" do.
The child minding philosophy is just plain illogical. Take the best qualified person for the job, send them out to work, and pay someone else. Just like getting someone to paint your house ennit?
I've thought about this for a bit, and I don't get it.
Yes, modulation would help. Not much though. My current boiler short-cycles once the water in the circuit is up to temp., and it would cut that out. But...
In a normal system the only feedback the boiler has is the water temp. and the main thermostat.
As the weather warms up the TRVs would throttle back the rads until the boiler modulates. The returned temp would then be high enough that it isn't pluming, and I wouldn't get the condenser benefits.
How is the boiler going to know that it's a cold day, and it needs to up the flow temperature? Surely it'll heat the water until it's hot, and let the TRVs (or main thermostat) do the clever stuff?
The boiler monitors the flow and return temperatures. When they narrow it know the house is up to temp and reduces the flow temp. When it widens it raises the flow temp. If it is clever enough it will also maintain the delta T of the heat exchanger raising or lowering the flow to suit.
Yup, plus external temperature compensation. This comes in two forms - automatic - i.e. snazzy boiler with external temp sensor, and manual - i.e. you notice the house is not getting warm enough on a particularly cold day and tweak up the water temperature stat on the boiler.
The boiler will reduce input power in an attempt to keep the return temperature low enough to still reap some condensing benefit (you will get a benefit from a condensing boiler anyway even when not condensing simply due to its larger / more efficient HE).
In the simplest of setups it won't "know", all it will see is the house takes longer to reach temperature and the return temperature does not climb so fast / high as normal. Heat loss rate for the building will be faster and hence the boiler will either not modulate as low, or will cycle less.
Yup, along with sticking as little heat in as it thinks is required, and extracting as much heat out of the fuel as it possibly can.
I guess if the rads are poorly balanced (with the lockshield valves too far open) the high return temperature could result in the boiler modulating down "too early"?
So Drivel's right then - the smaller the difference, the lower the output temp? Seems to me it'll take some careful work to avoid positive feedback there. Because if it lowers the output temp. too soon, the house isn't going to get warm at all... and if it takes it up too high, no condensing.
I take your point about it being (a bit) more efficient even when not condensing; however this isn't going to pay for a new unit.
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