Bit O.T. but ...

[Arfa Daily]

Well, probably totally O.T. but good for a bit of a 'down the pub' discussion, I reckon.

So, my county council have put in place a 'let's throw everywhere into gloom' policy to try to save money. They've done this by turning out all the lighting on main roads, except where there's a junction or a roundabout, and every second streetlight in residential areas. Apart from the obvious personal safety and crime implications, I could just about live with this, if there was some other method in place, for seeing where the road is, on dark nights. I am particularly thinking of two roads that I travel quite regularly. They are both quite 'big', and pass through open countryside, so on a dark overcast night, they are as black as your hat, and very difficult to see in 'normal' headlights. The main problem is that there are no cat's eyes to speak of, and any painted road markings, such as white edge lines, are either non-existent, or worn out. Recently, another stretch of dual carriageway nearby, which has also had its lights extinguished, has been 'refurbished' in this respect, but although it is better than it was, I am still unimpressed.

So here are the questions. Why don't modern cat's eyes work anything like as well as the ones that we had 40 years ago. Back then, even on a foggy night, the 'little better than a candle' lights on a Moggy Minor or Mini or Viva, caused them to light up like runway lights for at least a quarter mile ahead. The reflective ability of these modern ones seems piss-poor in comparison. When they have been installed for a while, their efficiency drops to next to nothing. Is this because they are plastic perhaps, and they just get dirty and scuffed up, which of course the original glass ones, with their built in self cleaning ability, didn't ?

Next question. Why is the reflective paint that they use to do road markings, nothing of the sort, anymore ? Again, back in the day, road markings used to light up really brightly. Now it just seems to be little more than white paint, which looks what is best described as 'fair' when it's newly done, but is useless when it's started to wear. Which brings me to the last question of why does road paint no longer last more than a week ? Well, a couple of months maybe, but after this relatively short period, it's totally worn out again, which it never used to be.

Unless something is done to improve the edge and centre-line visibility on these roads that have now had their lighting turned off, I really fear that sooner or later, perhaps in less than ideal weather, some poor inexperienced kid of a new driver, is going to come unstuck, and kill himself and his passengers ... |:-\

Arfa

[Clive George]

Not necessarily obviously going to happen that way round. People could well compensate for lack of visibility by eg slowing down - well, it's what I do :-)

The inexperienced kid driving too fast is going to come unstuck anyway. It's what young people driving cars do - hence the insane insurance premiums. The faster he does it, the worse it's going to be, so if he's in a bit of doubt over where the road is and hence going a bit slower, maybe it'll turn into an injury rather than a fatal RTA.

The lines and cats-eyes also only help with the empty road - if there's a dark obstruction on there (tree branch, cow, suitcase, whatever), you'll hit it faster if you've been going quicker due to knowing the line of the road because the reflectives have shown you.

Re your original questions of "why are they so shit" - couple of answers to consider:

More traffic. Way more traffic. This means much faster wear. More traffic coming the other way. This means less chance for eyes to adapt to darkness - it's always much easier seeing where you're going on an empty road. (though having a car ahead going the same way as you is even better). Modern headlamps may be brighter, but cut off rather lower, meaning distance vision is compromised on dip. (Xantia vs BX, I'm talking about you...) You're older, and your eyesight isn't as sharp in dim conditions as it was :-)

[Tim Watts]

In a nutshell, because the modern world is too cheap to do it properly.

The original catseyes are a cylinder with a glass lens set in a soft white rubber block clipped into a 4x4x4" (approx) lump of cast iron embedded in the road.

These worked because the glass lens was very efficient at reflectling headlights and the white rubber block was cunningly designed to wipe the lens clean when driven over.

I suspect these have fallen out of fashion because they require manual handling if the road is resurfaced.

So the next version is a surface mounted reflective stripe which can be planed off and thrown away and new ones quickly stuck down (by machine if required). Needless to say, these are rubbish and either get knocked off by lorries or the strip gets damaged and becomes even more useless.

There is hope - a section of the A21 in East Sussex has some new electronic solar powered LED catseyes - these are bright, andhave one feature over the original: they light up the entire roadline as far as you can see, not relying on your headlights for a source of light.

[polygonum]

All too true about the reflective properties. A nearby bit of motorway was recently resurfaced and is still pretty good - but the bits north and south of that section are dreadful. I have some cautious optimism that the new section might retain reflectivity for some time...

There is a junction a few hundred yards up the road from here, consists of a bend, a right-angle road and an island. All at the very top of a hill with poor lighting. Somehow it always feels like they have installed dark-emitting/light absorbing units. Especially on a misty night. Hardly anything reflective at all. Even though I know the junction well, it feels like there is nothing to identify location on the ground.

In that case I think reflectors on the kerbing would do an excellent job of letting you see where the road edges are. Further, they would not in general be driven on so would not be covered in black rubber and oil. And they would might still be visible even with a light dusting of snow. I imagine a slot cut into the kerb (with an angle grinder?) for mounting - not just stuck on.

[Huge]

Don't any of you ever drive in the rural USA, then. No street lighting, no reflective lines or posts, and in Pennsylvania, where I go regularly, no cat-eyes (because the snow ploughs would rip them out of the road). You can't see *anything* at night.

[Nightjar]

Until the mid 1960s, many roads, particularly in rural areas, had neither studs nor lines. It just meant you had to drive a bit more carefully. However, there is technology to help:

So here are the questions. Why don't modern cat's eyes work anything

They all have to meet a British / European Standard for performance, although different grades of reflectivity are allowed for different classes of road. Some are self-cleaning rubber depressible types, like the original cats eyes and usually a direct clip-in replacement for them, some are surface mounted. Plastic is widely used, but it has to have a scratch-resistant coating that should make it perform as well as glass in that respect.

However, it probably isn't the reflectors, but the viewer. Even without any of the possible age related diseases, you lose night vision as you get older. First, the pupil shrinks and allows less light into the eye. By age 80, it is the equivalent of a 20 year old driving at night in dark sunglasses. Second, the cornea and lens become less clear, which scatters light more inside the eye, reducing contrast sensitivity. That also makes it more difficult to see objects at night.

Colin Bignell

[Nightjar]

There are snow-plough protected reflectors available. I suspect that the cost of installing them on a long American highway is a factor though.

Colin Bignell

[Scott M]

BTDT!

And their headlights are crap too. Something to do with a less focussed beam pattern or something.

Scott

[Martin Brown]

Proper cats eyes are still on the trunk roads here and are excellent at night. The quality of the markings on other roads varies enormously.

The surface mounted glass tape ones are complete garbage. They were installed on our new bridge about 3 years ago and are now all smashed to bits in the gutter. They were not very good when new and they quickly unbond from the road when silage or grain wagons go over them.

I think you overstate the problem of lost sensitivity somewhat here but there is certainly an issue with aging eyes at night. In particular being more prone to flash blindness and excessive light scattering in the eye from the bluer xenon headlights of oncoming cars.

[Scott M]

Not having a dig, but, since I mostly drive on unlit country roads, I'm always amused by people who feel external light sources are a feature of the natural world!

Scott

[Tim Streater]

I tried it once or twice but then gave up. No maps worth a damn was one reason. Second was that for large stretches, there are signs up and down both sides saying "Posted No trespassing" (doubtless with hidden machine gun nests, although I never spotted any). Kind of puts you off.

[dennis]

They are using the wrong, aka cheap, paint. The decent stuff is full of glass beads which are like miniature cats eyes and reflects the light back.

They do that now, its called driving too fast. It gets them off the road, shame for the passengers but short of banning young drivers from having passengers what can you do? There is always some idiot that thinks they know it all and is a superb driver and can drive as fast as they like in perfect safety. More hidden speed cameras so they lose their license will do the job of protecting them and others.

[dennis]

That's not a problem with the eyes.. its the stupid after market craze for fitting xenon looking bulbs. the bulbs are usually cr@p and distort the beam pattern as well as the idiots jacking the beam up to make them look brighter. You can easily tell a real HID as they have really sharp cut off and don't dazzle you, the others are just excessively bright, blueish lights that need a hammer.

[Mark]

I quite often ride the stretch of road on a 1931 Ariel 500, about the only part of the A21 where i can see were im going at any reasonable speed without having to follow a car.

-

[Dave Liquorice]

The white rubber bit is about 4x4x2, the lump of cast iron is more like 6x9x3, it's a hefty lump when out of the road. they work and are self cleaning but around here don't seem to stay in the blocks of iron. I don't think it's the snow ploughs as the rubber shouldn't project above the raised corner bits of the cast iron mount.

Wouldn't like to bet on it. There have been headlight powered cats eyes for a while. The put some on the A686 by Edenhall several years back most have now failed I'm glad to say. They flickered in your perefial vision as you drove past them most distracting. One "selling point" was that they contiued to emit light for while after a car had past in both directions. Why one wants to know where the center of the road is in your rear view mirror I haven't quite manged to work out. If approaching them the after "glow" is more than wiped out by your own headlights...

[ARWadsworth]

Why do you have an obsession with speed cameras?

[Steve Walker]

My parents have a holiday home in France and until a couple of years ago, you literally couldn't see your hand in front of your face on a cloudy, moonless night - I know, I tried.

Unfortunately the local council have had street lights put in now, but at least they switch off in the early hours of the monring.

If I lived there permanently, I suppose I might appreciate being able to see my way to the bin without falling in the well though!

SteveW

[Dave Liquorice]

That's what it is like here. When it's dark, clear and moonless the sky is breath taking. "My God, it's full of stars!"

They switch off the lights on the M6 from midnight to 0500 somewhere north of Preston after Lancaster it's not lit at all or there abouts, there might be some lighting at junctions.

Why would one want to go to the bin in the middle of the night? Anyway that's what you have windows and interior lights or even exterior lights for.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Or even a torch, hurricane lamp, or candle..

[Andy Champ]

While I mostly agree with you the effect of the sharp cut-off on an uneven road is that it goes up and down over the mirror of the guy in front of you. (that's me BTW) and gives the impression that you are flashing your headlights.

It also has a little blue edge (some sort of prismatic effect) that can give the momentary illusion of a blue flash. Like a police car...

I had them on my last car. Hated them. Outside the cut-off area you can see _nothing_ which is a problem in any dip in the road.

Andy