BBC Internet Radio Streams

Those of us who take the business of listening to radio seriously, i.e. high quality sound through high quality audio equipment, will have been astonished or just plain confused by the BBC's recent decision to make most of its prestigious internet radio feeds only through its computer iPlayer or through a limited number of smart phones and tablets. The latter are rightly known for their slick presentation but don't rate very highly for sound reproduction. The BBC further compounded the problem by not letting anyone know about all this in advance (other than a very obscure BBC blog post last year) and they didn't properly consult with internet radio or streaming hardware manufacturers.

I could go on in great detail about all this, the arrogance with which the BBC has largely ignored the thousands of pleas for help, offers of advice etc post on the above blog. When listeners, after a month getting no adequate response from the BBC, started to get frustrated and complain, the BBC closed the blog!!

At this stage I'm just interested to find out how many people are adversely affected by all this with the intension of trying to get the BBC to reconsider its misguided "leap forward" regardless of the impact on its listeners. ChipMonk

Reply to
ChipMonk
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I agree. They are trying to force us back onto DAB to turn off FM :((

I bought a high end internet decoder because the quality of DAB is awful and now all I get is voice telling me it is no longer available :(

My newest kit works but the 320k Radio 3 stream has vanished. Selecting it jumps after a few seconds to the next channel in the favourites list.

My device manufacturer is Japanese and not especially bothered by the parochial decisions of a cut price broadcaster in a far off land. They are allegedly looking into it... but don't hold your breath.

I presume it is something to do with license fees.

I think this is one that requires a concerted campaign against this gratuitous change to Feedback on Radio 4 requesting the hanging drawing and quartering of whichever beancounter chose to do away with it!

Count me in on any campaign.

It wouldn't be so bad if they provided a sensible reliable new index of where to find valid decodable realtime streams. Searching for the suggested search terms that the little man suggests merely shows that they did it to save money and don't give stuff about customers with digital internet radios that cannot decode the new formats.

Reply to
Martin Brown

I use FreeView for radio these days. Tuners are cheap - much cheaper than DAB.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I agree. However I am now managing to stream Radio 2,3,4 etc. through mplayer again on my (non Windows) PC.

Reply to
Bob Eager

My hifi can receive the HD BBC Radio3 transmission on:.

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I think the URLs changed recently. PITA

Reply to
Michael Chare

I have this in vtuner:

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My receiver shows 320kbps AAC.

Reply to
Michael Chare

The FreeSat feed is noticeably better at least for Radio 3. But the internet radio was excellent on 320kbps until they pulled the plug :(

Linn still do their own 320k service that works (for now).

Reply to
Martin Brown

I have an entry for it but the decoder won't handle it at all :( It skips to the previous channel after a few seconds.

My PC will play the link you provided no problems @ 320k.

Reply to
Martin Brown

OK - I use "Squeezebox" for BBC Internet streams and, thanks to immense work by the o-l community, we've found fixes. But many thousands must be left stranded. Some of us have been lobbying BBC for last month with very little success. I'm trying to avoid getting into too much technical detail here - but for those who are lucky enough to receive them, the "new improved" BBC streams are unreliable, constantly re buffer etc.

The BBC "announced" all this in this very obscure internal blog last September:

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After messing up the Live streams and receiving well over 1000 well considered cries for help, constructive criticisms and technical suggestions, they then went ahead and killed Listen Again for all but smart phones, tablets and iPlayer App's on PCs. They've even deliberately blocked publication of the urls people could use to manually reinstate service. When there were too many protests they closed the blog last Wednesday!!

There's now an ePetition to try to get reinstatement of some streams back.

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If, as many of us have, you try to get politicians on board you get this:

Quote: "Thank you for your e-mail of 10 March, to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the Rt Hon Sajid Javid MP, about BBC radio. I have been asked to reply. Under the terms of the BBC?s Charter and Agreement, the BBC is operationally independent of Government and there is no provision for the Government to intervene in the Corporation?s day-to-day operations. The BBC is accountable to the license fee payer through the BBC Trust. The Royal Charter is the constitutional basis for the BBC. It sets out the public purposes of the BBC, guarantees its independence, and outlines the duties of the Trust and the Executive Board. It is still possible to enjoy live radio on Freeview, Freesat and YouView devices. It is also possible to receive live and on demand radio from the BBC iPlayer Radio on computers, tablets and smart phones. The Government believes it is important that the Corporation is aware of the concerns of viewers and listeners. In the first instance your concerns about bit rates may be raised with BBC Information: email via the website,

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or telephone 03700 100 222, or by writing to BBC Information, PO Box

1922, Glasgow, G2 3WT, or by writing directly to the programme area concerned. Alternatively, if you would like to contact the BBC Trust directly for more information, you may do so by writing to the BBC Trust Unit, 180 Great Portland Street, London, W1W 5QZ, by emailing snipped-for-privacy@bbc.co.uk or by calling their information line on 03700 103 100. I hope that this is helpful. Yours sincerely, Dempster Marples"

So, we can only talk to the BBC Trust about all this and the BBC Trust has its fingers in its ears and hands over its eyes and, if it replies at all, sends copies of the "September Diktat". It's the Plan which counts, not the consequences or outcomes!

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this business is on a par with Jimmy Savile, various hospital and care home scandals, Hillsborough, Rotherham child abuse - oh I could go on and on - but, despite being constantly told that "lessons will be learned" the response of our public servants is alarmingly consistent.

Those who can please use Usenet, social media or whatever to publicise the ePetition. We have very few other options to show how many people are affected by all this.

It's probably clear that I'm quite upset about this - but I want to listen to the radio in high quality sound through my expansive HiFi equipment. Not spending even more time in front of a computer or through a pretty but tinny iThingy. ChipMonk

Reply to
ChipMonk

Why are you posting incorrect information? Why are you posting individual messages to different news groups instead of cross- posting?

I can play any of the BBC's radio stations using VLC. And I can choose between four different bit rates: 320, 128, 96, & 48 kbps.

Reply to
Roger

Because I'm an old man who's used Usenet over decades but rarely posted. I confess - I posted in 3 groups. My bad - is that the right current expression?

So can I - sorry I should have said iPlayer AND VLC - on a computer.

I thought it was clear that I was referring to folk who don't want to spent any more time in front of a PC or with a PC next to their audio equipment. I mean those with specialist internet radio receivers or streaming hardware. You know, the sort of cheap outdated stuff made by Naim, Linn, Cambridge Audio etc. Squeezebox uses have fixes after immense community effort - I'm actually trying to give a voice for the little non techie guys who haven't a clue what's been going on in the last month other than their kit isn't doing what it should and they haven't a clue why.

ChipMonk

Reply to
ChipMonk

I've replied in "uk.tech.digital-tv".

Reply to
Roger

Well one group that has been badly affected are people who are visually impaired, which includes those with no vision at all.

If you read the BBC blog called 'Audio factory' or Google it, you will find stories from people in this group who have specialised bespoke kit to allow them to use an audible reader to help them select what they want to listen to. All this has gone haywire (afaik) because of the beebs decision to switch off WMA feeds (and others) and force everyone to use HTTP Live Streaming (or something like that) of AAC, without actually telling *any* of the manufacturers that this is what they (the beeb) was going to do (encapsulating AAC with HLS).

In one fell swoop the Beeb have decided to make the highest quality feeds available to the very segment (smart phones) who couldn't care less about HD radio, while slamming the door in the faces of people who a) do care about hifi, b) aren't PC literate, and so c) prefer to have a one-box solution called an internet radio.

It's all very well using a PC; just download a new version of whatever you are using. PC's have loads of ram, with dynamic allocation so it's not an issue. But for a dedicated radio with an embedded operating system and a fixed amount of memory it's not so simple. The manufacturer probably did the development of a 4-year old internet radio 5/6/7 years ago, and selected components that were designed 6/7/8 years ago. This is a huge cost to them, and no increased revenue for it.

The Roberts Stream 93i (What HiFi recommended) cannot receive the new format, and Roberts may or may not update the firmware. I'll hold off buying one until they do.

Reply to
Andrew

Indeed. The only hint from the BBC that all may not be quite as planned with the "Audio Factory" project was in Peter White's "In Touch", on Radio 4 two weeks ago (programme for disabled listeners for those not aware of Radio 4 UK). The mildest of criticism directed towards Andrew Scott, the senior manager responsible for all this. Just a pity that Paxman was not available for the interviewing job.

Truly the blind leading the blind

ChipMonk _____________ It took some time for me to realise that George Orwell and Fraz Kafka were futurology's great optimists.

Reply to
ChipMonk

An internet radio typically having significantly better DACs and totally silent operation whereas my PC has fairly active fan cooling.

The most effective way to protest is to make even more of an issue about the crap data rates that the BBC have used on DAB. This once again smacks of the beancounters always having the upper hand.

I don't actually care which route of programme transmission is used provided that I actually get studio quality sound. They have once again shafted the very market of audiophiles that they claim to serve.

I doubt if they will go back on this crazy decision since it will doubtless involve serious money but I for one want somebodies guts for garters since I am left with an expensive white elephant that will no longer stream BBC Radio programmes with high fidelity. I can't see the makers ever issuing fixes for the tiny UK market because of the Beeb.

Now I just get some naff bloke muttering words to the effect of go and look at "Audio factory" to see why we did it and a blog that no longer accepts posts because they got too many criticising this c*ck up.

Reply to
Martin Brown

I tried to make this point, in a good humoured way, in one of my posts, now buried without trace, on the BBC blog as follows:

"After putting up with countless breaks and stutters in this morning's "chunked" HLS Radio 4 transmission of "In Our Time - Beowulf", I amused myself with the following to ward off depression. Any allusions to deranged monsters and destructive dragons are entirely coincidental.

BBC Future Media - A Strategy for Radio - Going Forward, Back to the Past FAO Ms H Boaden (CONFIDENTIAL)

Further to the Blue Skies & Happy Hours initiative, we've been thinking out of the box and out of our heads. We recommend the following:

  1. Continue to insist on switching off FM. OK, this old fashioned technology works, most people like it, they have equipment which receives it and most even get a passable signal. But there are much more lucrative things to do with the bandwidth than pump out sad, un-cool Beethoven Late Quartets and intellectual discussions. So, we'll force users to
  2. Push on with DAB, a power hungry**, quickly superseded and failed technology. Never mind the quality, consider the quantity of stuff we could pump out even if nobody can receive it or bear to listen to it, sounding as it does like Radio Caroline circa 1964. But hey, the Pirate Ships were really cool and the Forward Thinking Workgroup has spent the last half century determined to emulate them. (**Neatly providing BBC balance to our once overly aggressive position on climate change).
  3. As a REALLY CUNNING subterfuge, we'll show what potential there is with internet streaming. Scope for lossless sound quality, almost universal coverage, flexibility of listening times, good fit with government broadband strategy etc. You name it, it would appear to have it - the "Bleeding Edge" Brigade are bound to fall for it. Then, just as users start getting on board with these half decent quality streams and Listen Again services, and specialised hardware starts to become available to handle them, we'll switch to our advanced, in-house technology (as recommended by the DAB working party) - just to show who's in control of radio in the UK. With these new streaming protocols, "bleeding chunks" of Wagner will take on a whole new meaning. At a stroke we'll kill this technology at birth because, after all
  4. We've expended so much cash and credibility on DAB that we're determined that's what they'll want and live with after all this. As a concession, we'll provide some token streaming for Apple products because, well, they're pretty cool too. We all have them at the Beeb, they epitomise our current "Form over Function" narrative and they are a great distraction in those boring departmental meetings. If unappreciative listeners don't like it, they can always go elsewhere - there's a great deal of choice and we'll hardly notice their departure because we can't really monitor the numbers.
  5. Footnote 1 - we may have to set aside token sums of money for the BBC Musicians and Sound Engineers Benevolent Funds. There is some evidence that, as this plan unfolds further, significant numbers of these employees and contractors may require support and psychiatric care. We continue to recruit only the best but, for some reason, they appear to feel unappreciated.
  6. Footnote 2 - the above narrative might also provide a good plotline for the vacant Radio 4 New Comedy slot - a much sought after replacement for "Cabin Pressure". With Andrew Scott as himself - what could possibly go wrong? This one might just run and run?." _________________________

Well it made me feel a bit better for half an hour that morning if nothing else.

ChipMonk _____________ It took some time for me to realise that George Orwell and Franz Kafka were futurology's great optimists.

Reply to
ChipMonk

Yes it made In Touch and You and Yours, the former had a drone from the department on who grudgingly admitted something had gone wrong with the consultation process. I commented at the time that obviously nobody in the department could use Google well enough to gather up a list of need to know companies and organisations. The are now reviewing what they can do about it, given that wma and other win media streams will no longer be used in favour of an in house solution based around llc and mp3. It might also be worth noting that they cocked the lists up on the tv I player so that people trying to make offline lists of say, audio described programmes in a given section could no longer do this easily. Once again nobody was consulted at all. There is something rotten at the management end of this operation and indeed the quality is dire even if you do get them. For example I logged in to the radio 4 I player the other day, and went to the flash player and tried to play Inside health. After a fairly long wait, it started to play but the quality sounded like a file which had been transcoded into mp3 several times with gritty audio and a gurgle in the sound, despite the latest flash player being installed. Indeed, the downloaded podcast from the same site was far superior, proving the point. Do they not realise that coding and encoding mp3s loses quality every time? What is wrong with using whatever the Australian Broadcasting corp use, as it actually works! Even World Service seems to be working better than the main national stations at the moment, maybe its because its only mono.

They really do need a kick up the backside. Are they being run by Mr Bean and an alien from the planet zob? Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

Yes the blind listeners are behind you 100 percent. Indeed one hardware maker was almost out of control in their response to the so called consultation, saying that there was no consultation and as they had been in the field of portable internet radio provision for blind people for over 10 years they were hardly hard to contact. Humanware. They are not happy, and I guess nor are most normal users. Kind of makes you want to become a hacker. The other issue is using international streams for some sports channels and thus removing their output outside of the uk, due to legal issues, but apparently due to the problems with the new streams, people inside the uk can now only get the international streams and they thus lose their sport. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

Increasingly, dab is losing bits but so is Freeview. its not bad for r3, but for time shifting or listen again its a pain to have to mess with a tv.

Myy pc client of choice for radio is now busted due to the stream changes. Webbie. They did not tell the authors of this either. Brian

Reply to
Brian Gaff

There was a similar thread 19th Feb about this, more about looking for the new URLs.

I was "adversely affected", in as much as I had to hunt down the URLs, then add them to a tablet internet radio app (which is then plugged into a hifi).

Aside: After getting my fingers burnt with a Pure Evoke Flow, I decided internet radio was only useful via a "proper" computer. A smart-phone or cheap tablet does the job pretty well.

Reply to
WeeBob

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