For the past few years I've been very intrigued about these MicroCHP boilers that are under development, for example I can see that the so-called "BAXI Ecogen" should be coming to market next year:
I'm especially interested in the noise performance. Surely these things must produce some kind of 50/100Hz Hum!!!!!!! That would drive me nuts.
It said on the website "Noise less than 45dBa" which is equivalent to a man speaking just over 12m away. Guess it depends where it is sited!
There were a couple of other products a couple of years back. They were eventually withdrawn, believed due to reliability issues.
I think these might make sense if we were to be self-sufficient in gas supplies for most of the boiler life. You're too late for that now in this country. They make good sense for countries which are still self-sufficient in gas, but then they don't need to be concerned so much about efficiency of gas -> electricity conversion, just like we weren't. The previous micro-CHP systems couldn't produce electricity off-grid, so there're no use in power cuts. One of them was intending to produce a sort of add-on power pack to anable this, but it didn't appear before the products were withdrawn.
We need to quickly move our electricty generation away from gas now, which is no longer consistent with micro-CHP. Their time in the UK was 10+ years ago, if they had been around at that time. It's a shame as I like the idea.
I like this...
"In addition it is well documented that the burning of those fossil fuels is causing a build up of greenhouse gases that is contributing to global warming. In light of this, it makes sense to make the best possible use of our natural resources. It is clear that we need to produce cleaner energy, and microgeneration can help us to address this issue at grass roots level - in our individual homes. " Run that by me again -- just what fuel does it use to create the electricity ;-)
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:06:50 -0000 someone who may be "Vortex2" wrote this:-
One of the manufacturers, Whispergen, recommend installation on a solid floor in their instructions and recommend not installing in a kitchen which is also used for dining.
Does it only use the waste heat from the flu to generate?
Well it does, but even my 6 year old condensing boiler doesn't produce 1.1kW waste from the flue in any normal operating mode, and then there's the matter of not being able to recover 100% of the waste.
Burn a 1 kW appliance on the grid and the efficiency from power station to appliance is around 40%ish on average. Generate the 1 kW in a boiler using very clean natural gas at 90% plus efficiency and you see the difference. Generated at 90% plus efficiency and zero line losses as the burning appliance is only feet away.
micoCHP still makes sense.
What makes best sense is:
Existing homes can do Nos 1 & 2. Not fully in most cases on No. 1.
There were, Powergen (I think) got awfully enthusiastic about them in
2004 as potential subsidy generators and imported the Whispergen units. After some initial reports of unreliability with many being removed it all went very quiet and although reports were that 80,000 units had been contracted for I don't think more than a few hundred were ever installed and the production rollout date has been one year away for the past half decade.The Baxi unit is I presume based upon the work they did with the now defunct British Gas subsidiary Microgen Energy Ltd.
One major problem with MicroCHP is that it only really work well in large houses which need a lot of heating. They are very inefficient on short run cycles. The more you insulate your house and lower the heat requirement the less the CHP boiler generates as they only generate electricity parasitically on top of the heating load. Typically the carbon savings in a reasonably well insulated house will be below 5% and in modern houses insignificant.
From past performance the major problem with noise appears to be the complete absence of it as the units seem to spend a lot of time dead. With their low life expectancy and unreliability it might be wise to allow others to buy the first few production batches.
The Microgen unit promised super reliability having a free wheeling piston (one moving part) in the Stirling engines to generate electricity. Coils in the piston. Designed by a specialist US company.
Whichever way you look at it it is a gas boiler with an added generator. It is always going to be less reliable than the same boiler without the added bits. What is promised, especially in terms of reliability, in glossy brochures and what is achieved in practice are frequently some distance apart.
So far all microCHP devices have proven to be unreliable and to have a short service life. That isn't unexpected with any new device where the manufacturing process is new. If you want to be at the bleeding edge of boiler technology you will have to be willing to accept the increased probability of failure.
Quality of design and quality of manufacture are very different things. I know some poorly designed products that are well made and the opposite. The free wheeling piston can only give reliability if made just to average quality.
Good simple design that ensures reliability with decent manufacturing is a great starting point. What you are saying is that Ladas were unreliable so all cars are unreliable.
microCHP is ideal if they are subsidised in new estate developments as less electrical infrastructure needs to be run in. The microCHP copes with peaks. The power companies can subsidise the installations. It also gives dispersed power generation, so less power stations needed. Millions of homes are needed and are planned (Credit Crunch is a blip which will go away). If these homes are all fitted with microCHP the country will benefit, as well as the householder too.
It all makes sense. It all adds up.
A report by Advantica the research and development department spinoff of Centrica or Transco (I can't recall which) said that MicroCHP could probably mitigate 0.45kW of electrical load per household for eight hours a day across the winter heating period. On a development with
200 homes that's around 350A. When the electrical supply for those 200 homes will be capable of circa 20000A then the gains from electrical infrastructure changes are zero because a reduction of that level has no real impact on the overall design. Scale it up to a small eco town of 10,000 homes and it makes a difference of a few 10's of amps at 132kV, insignificant and making no real difference to the design of the equipment.The conclusions that a number of studies are coming to is that CHP can work with a heating or cooling demand in a single installation of around the 250kW level but below that the picture is far from conclusive. What we can be sure of is that if MicroCHP had clear benefits for reducing carbon emissions or infrastructure spend then the likes of EdF and Eon would have been involved in a large scale roll out programme more than two years ago. They haven't and that is as clear a sign as any that it doesn't offer any real benefits to the user, the utility or the environment.
They are usually very closely related as unless an item is well designed for manufacture poor quality in the end product is almost inevitable.
Just average quality is all you will ever get from mass market items - they set the average.
If Baxi (or anyone else) make a microCHP boiler based on an existing boiler it is _always_ going to be less reliable than the boiler only version from the same manufacturer as the component count is going to be higher.
Unfortunately no one seems to have managed to do it yet.
As Lada are particularly reliable - no. What I am saying is that a considerable amount of development effort over many years by many companies has not produced a reliable product. This indicates it isn't an easy task and avoiding new versions might be a really good idea until the delivery of the technology into stable manufacture improves.
How will each house producing (on average) less than 100W/hr but only in the winter allow for less electrical infrastructure
As it is entirely parasitic upon the heating load how on earth can it do that?
You mean their customers subsidise the installations.
The Holy Grail as far as greenwashers are concerned is dispersed generation (no matter how ineffective). If you can get rid of the National Grid you make Nuclear power generation impractical which is their primary aim.
If all these house are built to decent insulation standards with modern and efficient boilers the heating load drops dramatically, the waste heat is minimised and the energy to be got from parasitic generation becomes negligible. One place Sterling Engine MicroCHP makes no sense at all is in new builds. It may be worthwhile is in old, large houses with very high heating loads.
It doesn't though.
The CH and electricity peaks coincide.
Which is quite a good idea.
Unfortunately they don't, they are an hour or two apart. You also haven't explained how generating 100w/hr for a few months of the year is going to affect infrastructure requirements?
Only if you are a neo-Luddite. The Microgen believers are the same ones who were promoting a windmill on every roof a year or so back.
Government research stated so.
Your estimate are way off the governments.
Nonsense. You have NEVER approved any advanced ideas, always spouting the stus quo - a Luddite. Local district CHP is a superior way to go, fired by natural gas, using waste heat to heat buildings and less line losses.
However the anachronistic grid will remain. It is there to justify nuclear - which is a big expensive mistake. The only reason to keep it is using lagoons to generate electricity. The UK and Ireland can get all of its energy, including EVs, by having about 20% of the Irish Sea made into tidal lagoons - a 20-25 year project though, but it will be implemented in stages. Knock on effects of bridges across say the River Seven, the Isle of Man, N Ireland to Scotland, etc. Lagoons is being taken very seriously, with trial planned off Swansea. Our electricity can be generated over the horizon.
Reducing energy needs helps a lot. Having superinsulation in new and reconditioned homes. PVs & solar panels as standard on roof tops, etc, etc. Better urban design reducing the need for car use, etc. As high insulated homes with solar design are being introduced, and the lagoons brought on line the impact should be a lot quicker than people think.
Town planning and improving the building regs to superinsulation, passive solar, etc, cots the taxpayer next to nothing. The insulation and design is paid for by the house builders.
Oh, _Government_ research. Must be right then. Would this be the same "Government research" which assumed windmills on houses would produce kilowatts a day of electricity per house in towns?
You are supposed to be a plumber - how much energy would be needed to heat a 3 bedroom house built to modern building standards? How efficient is the boiler doing the heating? The only energy left to power the generation part of the Microgen plant is part of the > Only if you are a neo-Luddite.
Which "advanced ideas"? Windmills on roofs? Generating electricity from power which isn't there? These are not "advanced ideas" but idiocy.
That isn't what we are talking about.
It will?
It already is -in nuclear reactors in France.
So with these highly insulated homes what is the role of the Baxi Ecogen?
You learn your economics from "Mr Browns Bedtime Economics Reader" I presume?. Who do you think pays the house builders?
That is what they concluded - no doubt by a privet company contracted on.
I don't know about that.
I am not a plumber. Never in million years
The best of them use a thermal store to store energy. The utilities wanted to control them remotely and start them up at specific times. This was looked into.
Any.
It is all power generation related.
If it goes ahead.
And when they malfunction, many are on the Channel coast a few miles away from us. Nuclear is not cheap and waste an expensive waste of time in the long run. A front for nuclear bombs.
That is an expensive waste of time in eco homes.
It is not via taxation. Those who benefit pay for it. Mass production brings prices down to what we have now, or less as pre-fabbed SIP panels will have to be used, instead of this shoddy brick an block and Paramount board crap we see now, that leaks air like hell.
They must have been hedging their bets...
vbg
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.