B&Q Wind turbines

[Tony Bryer]

The web site says

"The Windsave System will provide savings when the wind is strong enough to 'generate' and so long as there is a reasonable demand [base-load] from the ring main."

which implies otherwise

and from the FAQ

"As a micro wind turbine, the chances of our system exporting to the 'Grid' are minimal.

Properties typically have a base-load that is an ongoing consumption of electricity. Quite often this will use anything that you are generating from your own system.

At 12m/s (27mph) our system will run towards a 1kW output. The wind would have to blow a full hour to give 1kWh output. This is equal to a 'unit' of electricity ( You may pay as much as 12p but typical figures for your supplier buying back KWh are 2.5p and buyback tariffs cost as much as £150 to setup). There are very few places in the UK that would ever viably export to the grid from just one micro turbine. On this basis we believe the opportunities from exported electricity from the premises are minimal"

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:28:30 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer wrote this:-

I have no doubt they say that so they do not get involved in explaining the complications of getting paid properly for the electricity exported. These complications are being eased, but there is a little way to go.

However, the electricity is put into the house wiring and thus it is put into the electricity system. It cannot be restricted to only being used in the house the turbine is attached to. It would be different if the turbine was connected to a separate wiring system.

What then happens is that if the house load is more than the turbine is supplying electricity will flow into the house, if the house load is less than the turbine is supplying then electricity will flow out of the house. Getting paid for the latter is the complicated bit, the engineering is relatively easy.

[John Rumm]

All of which suggests that it *does not* feed back into the grid. (i.e. it just feeds the ring circuit in the house). The only need for external power[1] would seem to be to achieve synchronisation of the generated waveform with it.

In fact as they say in their own FAQ:

"What about exporting to the Grid?

As a micro wind turbine, the chances of our system exporting to the 'Grid' are minimal."

[1] The thing comsumes 6W - that is more than the TV in "standby" they keep telling us to turn off!

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:10:06 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm wrote this:-

Please explain how electromagnetic waves (or electrons if one prefers the water analogy) can be restricted so that they only move around the house wiring.

That 6W is certainly something to bear in mind when considering whether it is worthwhile. Note that this figure is clearly stated. If one was to believe the antis then this is something that the manufacturers would not state anywhere.

Whether a television set only draws 6W in "standby" depends on the design. If it has a CRT then it is likely to draw rather more than this.

[John Rumm]

You may get "spillage" as they call it, but there is no mechanism to account for or meter it. So you are not going to recoup any money from the suppliers.

I got it from their web site, so it is there for all to read.

Is your ability to present a balanced argument entirely dependant on having a chip on *both* shoulders? Sorry to have to alter your world view, but you can't divide most people into being either "pro" or "anti". Many of us will make decisions about these things on a case by case basis.

Personally I have no objection to renewable generation when it makes commercial and ecological sense. However I have a low tolerance for snake oil. I am sure if you took a cross selection of people with no specialist background knowledge on the subject, and had them read the Windsave information displayed in B&Q or on their web site, they would come away with a more positive anticipation of the products abilities, than would actually be warranted for the majority of potential purchasers. They would also acquire a fair amount of "information" about the availability of wind power in the UK that omits a number of significant details. This is called marketing, which as we all well know has to walk a delicate line between representing the most attractive reasons for owning a product, and telling outright porkers!

No shit Sherlock.

My thirteen year old 29" CRT set draws under 2W on standby. You can't make blanket assumptions. New sets will typically draw less than 1W.

[Mary Fisher]

...

It seems to me that the chips are on the antis' shoulders :-)

I doubt that you'll do that.

That's not how it comes across.

Mary

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:46:03 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm wrote this:-

That is a different discussion altogether.

If we are now discussing payments for electricity fed into the external electricity system then I refer readers to my earlier postings.

[John Rumm]

So who are they then?

No me either. Black and white is so much simpler!

Perhaps you read scepticism as "anti".

[seaside01]

So...

Are these things worth buying?

Will they last 10 years?

Will they produce a significant amount of electricity?

The Reading turbine is 65m high, has 2MW capacity and generates 3.5 million units per year. Pro rata for the 1kW B&Q system would be 1750 units, but probably nowhere as efficient.

[Andy Hall]

You could buy the Reading one and put it in your garden. Please.

[seaside01]

Somerset Council in Weston-super-Mare. Earlier today it was going at full speed as it's very windy. It's shown on the Windsave web site.

It makes a lot of noise! Particularly as it swings round a lot. Might annoy the neighbours.

[seaside01]

Somerset Council in Weston-super-Mare. Earlier today it was going at full speed as it's very windy. It's shown on the Windsave web site.

It makes a lot of noise! Particularly as it swings round a lot. Might annoy the neighbours.

[Zoinks]

Everything has been covered extensively on this newsgroup (c: Not always easy to find it though, even with google.

I don't understand the stuff in this thread about pro- and anti- so I'll skip that...

The thing I was trying to draw attention to was the fact that B&Q were even stocking these things. I wouldn't buy one simply because if the claims made were true I could simply build one myself for near-enough free (as reported on the lili website:

instead of for £1.5k! Furthermore, I can see that electricity generating co-ops would probably be the way to go about this - say 10-12 people building/buying a turbine large enough to be cost-effective and placed well out of the way of nimbys.

Z.

[kevallsop]

Friends of the Earth have come down pretty comprehensively as 'antis':

"If you're planning to make the ultimate green fashion statement by putting a wind turbine on top of your house, think again.

Green campaigners warn that rooftop windmills do little to cut greenhouse gases, may annoy your neighbours, cause vibrations that could damage your home and produce only enough electricity to power a hairdryer.

Friends of the Earth said homeowners would only save tiny amounts of electricity by investing in turbines. 'For householders the idea of a turbine is very sexy because it's an exciting piece of kit. It's making a very visible statement to the effect that, "I'm doing my bit",' said Nick Rau, a campaigner at the group. 'It's glamorous to put something on your roof. But if energy efficiency is the top priority, there are many other, much more straightforward things you could do that are much more cost effective, and more beneficial for the environment, like insulating your loft thoroughly.'"

[David Hansen]

On 10 Nov 2006 13:25:01 -0800 someone who may be [e-mail] wrote this:-

That would largely depend on where the "B&Q" turbine is placed.

[Derek ^]

And who d'ya suppose chose to ignore the following :

"The local ambulance service tried a number of test runs which came back as "incomplete" because the shift change occurred before the crew who had set out from 4 miles away and two hours previously with lights and sirens going got to the hospital."

By replying thusly :

"Excellent, a personal attack."

DG

[Derek ^]

David is not yet "Floating Point". That integer is out of range.

DG

[Derek ^]

And paint them out as you get shot down ?

DG

[Derek ^]

Erm, no.

See my other post.

DG

[Derek ^]

I don't know that there are any European Harmonised Standards for Dimnitude and Pillockitude, you can't buy a meter calibrated to against a standard traceable to a national standard that measures it.

In respect of Hansen I have satisfied myself that I have no reason to question the accuracy of that description.

DG