Attaching stair rail to newel post

[Jules]

Hi,

Our staircase is open on one side for the bottom 4' or so, so I want to put in an oak rail there. Attaching the rail to the wall partway up the stairs seems no problem (I can bolt it via a rosette and then cap with wooden plugs), and nor does securing the newel post at the bottom (via some big bolts right through from the basement below).

However, what's the most sensible way to secure the lower end of the rail (about 2"x2") to the (3"x3") newel post?

I did previously go out and buy a 'kit' to do this - it's just a nut, headless lag-bolt, and a 1" oak plug - but as the lag-bolt is headless I expect I'd have to lock two nuts together on the end in order to get the coarse-threaded end into the newel, then attach newel to the rail, then secure the newel to the floor (I'm sure I've got another suitable nut somewhere but am worried about the threads on the bolt getting mashed up, as presumably the torque needed to get the bolt into the newel via a pilot hole will be quite high).

So...

1) Do the above anyway, 2) Use a different lag-bolt with a head on it, 3) Use an even longer lag-bolt and go right through the newel post (and cap with the oak plug) from the 'outside' edge of the newel, 4) Just use a couple of normal wood screws (I've seen this suggested, but it doesn't sound very strong!), 5) Something else entirely?

(And whilst I'm at it, if using a lag-bolt approach, presumably it's wise to dowel between the rail and newel too, just to keep things in line? I should have enough space in the rail-end to fit both a dowel and lag-bolt through)

Fortunately I do have a 3" long newel offcut to practice on, as the newel was otherwise too high for the 3' rail height that we wanted :-)

cheers & happy you-know-what,

Jules

[Matty F]

I'd use a chisel to make a 2"x2" hole in the newel. And put a screw underneath the rail diagonally into the newel post.

[Frank Erskine]

and the reference to a "stub mortise" was to me a "stopped mortice".

[<me9]

Wikipedia is basically american. It is a well known fact that they can't spell.

[Jules]

rail's a pretty intricate shape, so carving a mortise to get it to fit as-is would be hard, but I could probably fashion a square tenon protruding from the end of the rail.

Think a conventional screw would be strong enough, though? I expect there'd be quite a bit of lateral load put on the joint every time someone grabs the top of the newel as they head up the stairs. I think there'd probably still be space for the lag-bolt though - and I did a test with my piece of scrap newel and lock-nutted bolt and it seemed to go in OK so long as I kept backing it off a little every few turns, so maybe that's the best bet...

cheers!

J.

[Matty F]

This is what I was proposing:

I have some rather large screws in my junkbox!

[terry]

There are also some pretty aggressive glues these days! Think about those?

For example we took apart repaired and then glued and screwed the framing of the front of an old 'truck camper' (sort of like caravan unit that slides into back of a pickup truck). It was actually the part that sticks out at the front of such a unit above the cab of the vehicle and it contains a non opening window . They are notorious, like the front of some caravans) for having rain driven into interstices etc. and then developing rot! **

Then found had to take it apart (again)! The glue, which was only a few days old, was so strong that in some cases it removed a layer of wood from the surfaces of the adjoining pieces. Basically had to 'break' some pieces apart!

So in addition to some sort of 'mortise/tenon', gluing the surfaces might be good idea. Just don't try to take it apart again; or expect some sawing if you!

[Jules]

True, there are... I'm wondering if the joint between the rail and newel is probably going to loosen a little over time regardless of what's done - so actually it might be better to not use any glue just so it can be tightened up again ten years down the line if it has worked a little loose.

In the end I've gone for a combination of lag-bolt and dowel to hold things together (mainly because I don't have any good chisels handy, and we're snowed in today so can't go and get some) and I'll see how that goes over the coming weeks - if needed I can put a different bit of rail in along with a m&t joint later (and re-use the current bit of rail elsewhere; I've got a spot upstairs where I'll need a shorter run one day anyway)

Thanks for all the thoughts, all.

cheers

Jules