Google doesn't lead to any clear conclusions, so I'll ask here...
We've just looked at a house with a view to buying.
The roof tiles (don't know when they were redone), which I had a good look at through the attic window are red, fairly standard size, but only about
4-5mm thick.
This seems too thin to be concrete, and the material appears slightly fibrous. Unfortunately I didn't take a camera.
Is asbestos cement likely - as in how common was its usage for flat roofing tiles? Is there any other material it could be with that thickness?
I'm not normally that bothered about crysolite products (assumption) but I'm thinking of a higher than desireable fibre count blowing in through the window continuously when it's open.
The only way to be sure is to have a sample analysed, but I'm interested in canvassing some opinions before I start forking out cash.
They certainly look like a fibre-cement product of some sort, just a question mark over the "fibre" bit. Wonder what the Marley tiles are made of? A search of their website for "asbestos", suspiciously, turns up zero matches.
==================== When I used these slates about 5 years ago Eternit was an independent company and I'm pretty sure that they were asbestos-free. I doubt very much if Marley would have reverted to using asbestos when they took over. Marley also reduced the range of tiles very drastically so there's much less choice of size and colour now.
You could ask for a 'Health & Safety data sheet' from the Marley page which should (hopefully) confirm the absence of asbestos.
I feel encouraged, if there is an asbestos free product which these tiles
*might* be, then I have hope - I'd still get a sample tested - but I suspect they could well be this product.
Many thanks indeed.
Tim
PS
Stupid estate agents... I'm looking at two houses in my village: this one at
200k (2 bed, needs total rewire and full redecoration, drive for 1 Mini and no insulation to speak of. The other looks like not much redecoration, garage and 3 bed at 210k.
Why is the 200k house so nearly the same price as a much better house 1/4 mile away, I ask. Them: well, the 200k house has so much potential.
"Potentially lots of work and money I'll have to spend" methinks, to never be able to get to the level of the 210k house. Those guys crack me up.
I'm not sure how much use a datasheet for a new product would be, unless the tiles are new.
tbh its a non issue, but can often panic buyers with no knowledge of the topic. Given how long asbestos cement tiles have been around, if you see some theyre probably more likely to be asbestos than not.
Unless theyre disintegrating they wont release fibres, and the evidence is that chrysotile is not a dangerous fibre anyway. If, and its not likely, they were blue or brown, things would be different; crocidolite and amosite have claimed many lives.
Why would one take anything a salesman has to say seriously.
True. I could ring their helpline and pick their brains on old products. I'll have to take a stab at the age of the roof, judging by the moss and lichen, probably > 20 years old and predating the current owners.
Yes. I'm pretty happy judging garage roofs, but I'm not familiar with house roof tiles beyond real slate, concrete, and clay.
Such a difficult area to judge, so many conflicting reports... As I say, not normally bothered - say with a garage roof. Few fibres maybe, blowing away in the wind, who cares... This is an odd case, purely because of the velux window - got me thinking whether the fibres would get concentrated to a bad level within the roof space. The roof space is boarded and, although not prepared as a habitable room (floor not strengthened and just a loft ladder for access) it could be used as a play area for older kids with a rail around the opening, or as a study, which is pretty much what the current owners used it for.
Heh - not me. The 210k house looks like (on paper, get to see it on Tuesday) like it might actually be worth 210k. If I went for the 200k house, I'd be offering somewhat less to account for the immediate remedial work which I'm just costing up now (DIY, though I'm not too proud to admit I'll probably have to get a plasterer in).
Looks like a fun project though. Doesn't seem at first sight anything much wrong with the basic structure and it's very solid (roof concerns notwithstanding). Roof space is ripe for a proper loft conversion later. I have a splendid excuse ready for SWMBO, to completely rewire - the current house possesses all of 3 circuits, lights, cooker and sockets (about 1-2 per room, grand total of 4 in the kitchen, including a dodgey bit of spurring off the cooker point. Looks like a 30-40 year old installation. So I can flood it with power and data before actually moving in - get the majorly dirty work done and dusted straight away, quick paint job and it should be pleasantly habitable. Then redo the decor nicely room by room later.
If you are worried don't buy the house. Objectively the risk, even if they are solid chrysotile asbestos (which they won't be), is as close to zero as makes no difference but there is no accounting for fear.
Don't forget that flooring tiles from earlier than the 1980's are between 30 and 50% chrysotile if you really want to worry yourself.
That's useful information. Suspect the roof is a bit older than this, can't get a definate date yet, though the neighbours may know something.
That's what I keep telling myself - but it's hard to undo years of "conditioning" :( - like at work, everytime a bit of grey board needs to be touched, the men in suits with tents are booked in at great expense!
I remember reading that crysolite fibres are supposed to dissolve and disperse in the lungs, unlike the other varieties, so are unlikely to cause the body much grief. But for every report like that, there's another report that says you'll get something 'orrible and die.
Indeed - that turned up in my googling earlier - I was surprised. I knew about artex, but flooring was a new one on me.
not sure that vague guessing would tell you any more than a vague guess.
Are the tiles crumbling to dust? If not, just where are these fibres you speak of coming from?
if it has glass fibre insulation, theres good reason to believe that may be fairly unsafe in the same was as blue and brown asbestos. It hasnt been researched yet, but the awareness of its similar structure and properties is there. So if you want to worry about dying from lung diseases, youve got loose glass fibre indoors vs cement bound fibres outdoors.
To be serious, youve got way bigger risks in the house than asbestos tiles even if theyre blue/brown. Its odd how people can obsess over trivia and ignore the real dangers.
Yes. I'dd add plenty more cat5 than needed, its very cheap and may or may not come in rather useful downline. Eg more data, burglar alarms, security systems, multizoned semi-passive heating and cooling, hifi distribution etc, fire alarm system wiring, bellcalls, phone sockets, intercom, baby monitor, and who knows what future apps. Maybe your food cupboard will want to talk to the computer one day - less likely things have already happened.
Not crumbling - I was assuming some might come off the surface due to any minor abrasion, wind etc. I might have assumed wrong, but I didn't honestly know.
I think I agree with you. I was under the impression white asbestos was exaggerated in dangers. The asbestos removal industry is certainly doing well out of it. Soemone's been doing a good job with the scare-mongering.
Couldn't agree more. My office was flooded with CAT5e 2 years ago, and now we (7 sysadmins) have another two 24port switches lying on the desks on top of utilising all the wall points.
Best to use conduit too - whatever one puts in now is all going to be obsolete in 10 years.
Just roughly costed the elctrics, and am pleasantly surprised with the result, considering I've done a completely over the top spec with the best parts I can find. tlc's prices are quite refreshing compared to B&Q. Haven't costed in getting some test instruments off ebay yet, nor the making good - but it's still going to be way cheaper than getting a man in.
Chrysotile comes from the serpentine group, whereas the other fibre types, tremolite, amosite, crocidolite, actinolite and anthophyllite, are part of the amphiboles group. In contrast with amphiboles, Chrysotile does not persist in the lungs after inhalation; it is quickly eliminated by the body. A prolonged exposure to high concentrations of chrysotile fibres is required for a clinical manifestation of pulmonary damage to appear.
The asbestos panic is largely lawyer driven and stems from a question asked of an expert witness in one court case years ago which was (more or less) "Can you say that exposure to one fibre of asbestos cannot cause mesothelioma" to which the answer was "no". There is no known threshold of exposure to asbestos below which a person is at zero risk of developing mesothelioma. Immediately all cases of damage from asbestos exposure became indefensible and the lawyers rushed to get their snouts in the trough.
Although it is undoubtedly true that a single amphibole asbestos fibre _can_ cause mesothelioma (and there are documented cases of relatively small exposure most probably causing mesothelioma) all the evidence is that the probability of damage follows a standard exposure-response relationship - the greater the exposure and the greater the length of time the greater the risk.
With chrysotile the evidence of it being harmful other than in conditions of high exposure for a long time (such as in mining and fabrication of asbestos sheeting) is, at best, weak. Certainly there is no evidence of any greater incidence of asbestos related disease in many occupational groups which have had higher than normal exposure only to chrysotile such as motor mechanics (brake dust).
What is also true is that there is no certainty that many of the replacements are any safer - or even as safe as Chrysotile.
The risk from normal domestic exposure to asbestos cement products is a close to zero as makes no difference. Flying in a commercial aircraft for one hour would certainly give a much higher lifetime risk of getting cancer from the increased radiation dose than living in a house with an asbestos cement roof would give of contracting asbestos related illness.
In the last decade the official (HSE) predictions of deaths from Mesothelioma have gone from a peak of 3,300 to a peak of 2,100 (on the same basis) and that has now reduced to about 1,800. At the same time the estimate of asbestos related lung cancer deaths has halved. Not surprisingly many asbestos removal sites and lawyer groups continue to quote the older figures.
Sounds quite similar to our old roof. That was asbestos based. We just had the whole roof removed and replaced (it was unlined and leaking). Disposal of the asbestos tiles cost IIRC =A3450 - we had a small skip delivered and taken away again by a specialist company. The risk, as others have stated, is very low.=20
Unfortunately the house got snapped up in the 4 days I was costing works. Some local builder had his eye on it, prior to it being advertised, apparently and gave the asking price (I was planning on going a bit under due to full rewire and crap kitchen layout which would have needed a wall removing). Bloody housing market.
Just seen three more houses (for interest, not really on topic).
a) Beautiful end of terraced cottage with a good sized garden. Tiny inside though, and expensive and with shot electrics, what looked like an antique Crabtree voltage driven ELCB protecting the TT installation - though I'm not 100% certain, but looked of the era when RCDs weren't common. Rest of CU broken and cabling didn't look too fresh either.
b) Nice solid brick 50's semi, pricey but good garden and parking. Totally ruined by poor extention layout and cheap makeover involving plasterboard on dabs on all walls (I hate plasterboard on walls, especially when not skimmed), nice new Contactum CU (good), new 2-quid fittings everywhere, but (despite the plasterboard work) same original cabling - spotted choc block through hole in plasterboard (well, I suppose it was accessible, until the hole is repaired!). Wouldn't be happy until I'd redone the wiring and thus ruined the cheap make over. Why did they bother?
c) Best bet so far, but under offer - but I had to look... Very cheap semi-bungalow, boarded up due to reposession and relation of owner breaking in and either trashing the place or the damage he caused breaking in encouraged the local oiks to have a go (allegedly, according to locals I was chatting to).
Once I looked beyond the broken glass and the buggered kitchen, I realised that once stripped out and cleaned up by a couple of labourers with a big skip, we would have a totally sound shell - plaster was solid, structure in good order (with couple of caveats). A rewire, new heating system and a kitchen - plus new windows where broken (actually most of them) would have resulted in a practically perfect property with all new core systems, but original character. The cheapness of the property and the addtitional negotiating potential against a remote bank who probably just want it off their books would have saved enough money to cover the work easily.
Anyway - probably gone - and a slight question mark over whether said relation is likely to pay any more visits or not means it won't happen. Interesting 50 minute visit though imaginging the potential...
Sorry, I'm a bit late catching up with this. Peter, may I suggest that you keep this post and post it again as and when necessary. It's the perfect reply to alot of these asbestos questions and it would save an awful lot of bother and arguments. Well, a certain amount of them anyway :-)
-- Holly, in France Gite to let in Dordogne, now with pool.
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