Asbestos garage - who to dispose?

[JimK]

you back now or just fanning the (dying) flame before hiding again? :>)

watch my lips "RELATIVE RISK"

that is all

Cheers JimK

[Andy Dingley]

It's useful to split the "asbestos related disease" into mesothelioma vs. the rest. There are several conditions (including smokers with tobacco-related lung cancer) that are counted as asbestos related, because they will increase with exposure to asbestos. In particular, the biggest source of excess deaths that are causally linked to asbestos is in tobacco-related lung cancer of smokers who wouldn't have died from it if they hadn't also smoked (or admittedly, passive smoked) Asbestos massively increases your susceptiblity to the effects of tobacco. As this is a common form of cancer in that age group, it's the biggest source of excess deaths.

Mesothelioma is interesting because it's uncommon and it's even rarer to suffer from it except by asbestos exposure. So it's not the major killer, but it is the best index for the harm being created by asbestos over time.

However it's also important to look at the long incubation times for these conditions, particularly mesothelioma. These cases weren't triggered amongst workers working under current exposure limits and general working practice, simply because cases developing now from exposure under the less-exposed regime won't be identifiable yet. We _know_ that practices in the '60s and '70s were bad (particularly pipework in communally heated high-rises and hospitals) caused mesothelioma, that's why we've changed those practices already.

"Julian Peto" is a good initial search qualifier, as one of the more active researchers (or at least publishers) in the field. Artillery crews are also a study group of interest, particularly self-propelled artillery (enclosed space).

[Bruce]

Three more will die today. Three more tomorrow. Three more the day after that.

Relative risk? Try telling their relatives.

[Man at B&Q]

So how many construction workers were dying each week as a result of workplace accidents *at the time* these other workesr were exposed to asbestos?

How many construction workers are today being exposed to dangerous levels of asbestos and do you expect the 1000/yr deaths to hold in say

40yrs time?

MBQ

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

Not really, these "blips" are entirely expected.

The opposite is also true, e.g., old people who confound the "smoking and drinking is bad" rule by living to a ripe old age whilst doing both in more than moderation.

In most cases there is no reasonable action that can be taken to reduce risk to zero.

MBQ

[Bruce]

Back in the 1970s, construction site deaths were at the rate of

140-200 per year.

But you have comprehensively missed the point; by no means all of the

20 deaths per week now are as a result of exposure all those years ago. Subsequent exposure to asbestos already existing in buildings is a significant part of the problem.

There are very large amounts of asbestos still in buildings. As those buildings get older, they will deteriorate, and the hazard they present will increase, not decrease.

So there is nothing to be smug and complacent about. The worst problem is ignorant people mouthing off as if the problem is past, when the truth is quite the opposite.

[dom]

"There are three main types of asbestos =96 white, blue and brown. White asbestos was the type most commonly used in the UK. Blue asbestos was not used in Britain after 1970, but the use of brown asbestos continued into the 1980s, and carpenters often cut and drilled brown asbestos insulation board with power tools. The researchers believe this was a major factor underlying Britain=92s mesothelioma epidemic."

"The mesothelioma risk caused by amosite is two orders of magnitude greater than for chrysotile (white asbestos)(Hodgson & Darnton, 2000)"

.....

Whilst all deaths from asbestos exposure are a tragedy, the research published by the HSE is saying the risk for construction workers is probably 99% due to using power tools on brown asbestos.

[Andy Champ]

So is the concurrent, and continuing, exposure to tobacco smoke.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that _some_ types of asbestos aren't dangerous. It looks as though it may be similar to the position with alcohol: Ethanol can do you harm, but for most users is harmless. Methanol, on the other hand is rapidly fatal in all cases.

Andy

[Fredxx]

You've hit the nail well and truly on the head. "Asbestos related disease" covers the likes of mesothelioma, which isn't always caused by exposure to asbestos.

It's a bit like saying "smoking related disease" and lumping all forms of upper trunk cancers and heart disease.

[Andy Dingley]

WTF else causes it? While you're right to say that "related" diseases are hard to causally link to asbestos, mesothelioma is one that is.

[John Whitworth]

Mesothelioma is rarely *not* caused by exposure to asbestos.

[John Whitworth]

messagenews: [e-mail]...

Can't argue with that. And that is why it would be better to advise caution to all would-be asbestos cleaners/removers etc. ;-)

JW

[Bruce]

Oh really? So what else causes it, Mr Expert?

[Fredxx]

Maybe, but of all the people I have known, only person had died from mesothelioma, and at no time had she carried out any DIY or would have knowingly come in contact with asbestos.

From the wiki, "However, mesothelioma has been reported in some individuals without any known exposure to asbestos. In rare cases, mesothelioma has also been associated with irradiation, intrapleural thorium dioxide (Thorotrast), and inhalation of other fibrous silicates, such as erionite."

As time goes on with less exposure to asbestos, mesothelioma should decrease.

[Clot]

And the more infrequent ones become a higher percentage of the total and focus of greater attention?

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce saying something like:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a rash of lung disease coming up in the next ten to twenty years, caused by shitty old glassfibre insulation that people are being exposed to now, as they traipse around loft spaces, disturbing crap and raising dust.

[Clot]

Quite!

[Andy Dingley]

There are several issues here. Firstly don't trust Wikipedia, secondly don't trust Wikipedia because it's full of Americans. Here in the UK, mesothelioma was expected to fall, but has failed to do so. There are theories to explain this, and why the UK is now so different to the USA, mostly based around higher usage in the UK of Amosite (brown asbestos) for longer.

There are even theories based on trade union rules and job demarcation on building sites. In the UK "carpenters" have a high incidence of asbestos-related conditions, which US "carpenters" don't show. However the job definitions for UK studies were poor: they didn't distinguish well between joiners, carpenters and different sorts of carpenter. So even someone in the UK who's a green oak timber framer working outdoors in woodlands faces problems with life insurance for being an "asbestos high risk group" (!). The likelihood is that UK demarcation for carpenters is fairly loose and they were involved during the '60s and '70s with refurb work around heating pipework in large buildings (in contrast to union rules in the US). As has been recognised since the 1920s (steam fitters and boiler laggers, particularly on ships), refurb work (_removing_ old insulation) has a much higher exposure and resultant risk than installing fresh insulation, as the insulation material is treated more roughly.

[John Whitworth]

Agreed. Let's hope that people haven't been telling others that it's perfectly safe, and failing to mention cheap safety measures like masks! ;-)

The space blankets are a good idea - until you have to cut them, of course! :-)

[Bruce]

Indeed. Old insulation also tends to be desiccated so that when it is removed it tends to create a lot of fine dust that is easily inhaled. There was probably far less dust when it was installed.