Are room thermostats out of fashion?

[Andrew]

In article , Dave Plowman writes

Watch tonights 'Tenants from Hell 2003' on now - ITV

[Velvet]

I wish they'd do a 'landlords from hell' too. Not all tenants are bad. Not even most tenants are bad. Not many good tenants stay good tenants for long when faced with a bad landlord who treats them as a bad tenant though.

I used to do small amounts of maintenance work to the flat I rent. Then the landlord changed, and the new one hiked the rent by nearly 40%. I suffered no hot water for several months, followed by no oven for several months - both of which were clearly their responsibility to get sorted.

As a result, I'm not prepared to put in my time, money, and effort into those bits of maintenance I used to do. They want going rates, they get to do all the maintenance they should. And they're liers to boot. They lied to me about the boiler, they lied about the oven. And they lied about the reason given for putting the rent up.

Landlords should think a bit more about the fact that if they treat tenants badly, of course their tenants won't feel in the least bit inclinded to cut them any slack, let alone help them along. I don't condone what really terrible tenants do, but I can fully understand how they might reach that point after having experienced bad treatment from a landlord.

Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself.

Velvet

[IMM]

The laws are stacked "firmly" in the tenants favour, so much so its a joke at times. If the landlord does not do essential maintenance, give him notice about the problem, if he does not respond in a reasonable time, you can inform him you are having the repairs done yourself and that you are taking it out of the rent (bills and proof etc). Remember you have the money before him. If you spent £200 on repairing a cooker and he said it was not authorised he has to take you to court, which will cost way over £200. If you act responsibly and follow the procedures, the court will go in your favour. Some landlords are just lazy and are prepared to allow you to do the arranging of maintenance and take it out of the rent.

If he wants to inspect you don't even have to let him into the property. You don't even need to allow the CORGI man in to inspect. If they stand outside with the police,complete with a CORGI man, they still cannot enter, even the policeman. You would be foolish not to allow a CORGI inspection, but you don't have to have the landlord inside. If the CORGI man disconnects various appliances, once again give the landlord enough time to get the repairs done. If not do it yourself and take it out of the rent.

The property is "yours", it belongs to you for occupying living purposes, until you get out voluntarily or a court tells you to get out. Then you can still stay until the bailiffs come around. If he does enter, call the police and they will have him thrown out, if he persists he can be prosecuted. If he does keep entering without your permission, change the locks. "Which" do a guide on letting and renting. Also see uk.legal on this.

[Velvet]

I'm well aware of all of the above, but in the interests of not making life hard for myself at tenancy renewal time, I explored the option of getting repairs done myself and taking it out of the rent.

Know what I found out? It breaks the tenancy agreement if I do. And know what else? If the landlord's then left unable to pay the mortgage cos I've deducted from the rent to cover costs of repairs, I don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to the mortgage company reposessing it.

I've already been told (and seen the evidence for myself, though as I said, I've also seen evidence that I was lied to about the reason for the rent increase) that they're broke.

So whilst it SEEMS like it's all stacked in the tenants favour, in reality it's not as simple as it sounds. My landlord lives in the flat below me, and we can each make each others lives hell if we so chose. After the last set of tenants before them down there (it was rented out by original landlord) I have no wish to return to being woken up at all times of the day and night and not being able to listen to the telly due to their music, etc.

I *might* have a malformed assured shorthold tenancy, which would make it an assured tenancy - I've been here a long time, and don't recall having signed or seen the relevant notice for it at the start, let alone got a copy of it.

However, I'm saving that particular trump until the time when I might really need it. I've given them two opportunities to do the right thing now and get stuff sorted in a decent time, my patience has evaporated. Next thing that goes wrong will be notified to them in writing by recorded delivery thing, and if nothing's done within a reasonable time I *will* be taking steps to get stuff sorted. I pay going rates for this place despite the state of the garden, lack of reinstatement of dividing fence/gate, etc.

The landlord thinks they can get away with pulling the wool over my eyes regarding rent increases too. I got told 'I didnt ask for the increase in rent last month cos of the appliance problem' - fact is, I'd never had written notification of the rent increase - first time I had it in writing was when we signed the new tenancy, so I worked the figures out as two months from that date, so to have expected it earlier (and make out they were doing ME a favour) was fecking unbelievable, but to be honest, just what I'd expect from the bunch of shysters that call themselves landlords these days.

Velvet

[Jerry.]

Just hope they don't read this newsgroup, you have listed enough details to ID yourself even with a alias if they also have a tenant with the same problems !...

[IMM]

You can't sign your rights away.

If essential repairs, he would not undertake, then you are in the clear. What do you mean, "I don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to the mortgage company repossessing it". Legally? Credit rating?

You can't sign your rights away. Having "essential" repairs done yourself and taking it from the rent is totally above board. Check it out.

Is the rent the going rate for that type of property in that area? Irrespective of the %age hype, if the rent is the going rate then you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to an increase. You may have been getting more than a good deal in the past.

When you sign a new agreement insist that increases will be at the RPI. Then they can't complain or hype it.

[Velvet]

Quite honestly I'm not that fussed if they DO ID me. It might make them wake up to the fact that they should know what they're doing and not treat their tenant like an idiot.

Velvet

[Velvet]

In the legal documentation I uncovered, I have to jump through hoops to get quotes from people to get stuff repaired. I tried this once. I need 3 quotes, and have to go with the lowest I get. How do you establish a quote based on some people giving you quotes for fixed price (expensive) and others on a rate plus parts?

And NONE of them would provide a quote in writing. I gave up trying after having phoned ALL the relevant people I could find in the area.

If I don't go through all these hoops, then it's non-payment of rent, and breaks the tenancy agreement, regardless of the fact that money is used for repairs the landlord should have made.

I mean just that. If the mortgage company repossesses, I lose the roof over my head. I have my suspicions the mortgage company has no idea they're even renting it out. There's a clause in the tenancy that states as much, though I admit I haven't looked to see if this is actually legal, because as I've said before, I strongly suspect I have an assured tenancy, not an assured shorthold.

Answered elsewhere.

It is the going rate, I negotiated down from above going rate - for a newly refurbed property (I've been here for 11 years now). I was getting a very good deal in the past, cos I was a) a good tenant, always paid on time, b) looked after the place, and did bits of pieces in maintenance etc, and c) the landlord wanted to keep me here cos I never made trouble for him or other tenants.

To give you some idea, the back garden (which comprises part of the property I rent) is full of brambles, can't be accessed safely by myself due to no hard structures in place to permit that (think very sloping ground), the carpets are worn and nearly threadbare in places - and will need replacing before they could get another tenant in, there are some sizeable cracks in the ceilings that were caused by roofers working under the direction of the previous landlord which again, need addressing before another tenant would rent the place, not to mention the rotting front door step which I have told the landlord about and which was to be replaced earlier this year, etc etc.

The bottom line is that market rate for this flat is what I'm paying, but that it is not at market rate condition. However, it's more expensive for me to move elsewhere in terms of finding a bigger deposit, and the fact that I have (very well behaved) cats makes it harder too.

Anyway, enough of me bitching about this. I was just making the point that those who flippantly say 'tenants from hell' shouldn't tar us all with the same brush.

Velvet

Good idea.

[Phil Addison]

Amazing. For once I am in full agreement and IMM is 100% correct here. In fact the details ire so accurate that I think he must be an amateur lawyer.

-- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply

[Phil Addison]

Just tell the landlord that HE is in breach, and therefore you are lodging all further rent payments with your solicitor who will hold the monies until the repairs are done. That will make him sit up.

-- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply

[IMM]

I am just brilliant at life in general.

[Ed Sirett]

It would probably get him standing up aswell! I'm not familiar with Assured tenancies. However in shorthold agreements the Landlord (or his agents) have a right to enter the property to inspect or maintain it at all reasonable times. I beleive this can be interpretted at law to mean that the agent attempts to give 24 hours notice and may enter during the working day Mon-Fri, or at other times by mutual agreement.

Many LA/HA landords usually write to their tenants that they wish the gas installation to be inspected but make it clear that they will force an entry if necessary. It seems improbable that they would take such a line if they did not have a legal basis for this.

[IMM]

They do not. They can only request access. The "reasonable" times is to prevent harassment, otherwise a landlords could go in every day and stay for hours banging pipes. If the tenant does not want them in, if they pay or don't pay rent, they do not get in, end of story.

Nonsense. At least one week in writing is regarded as reasonable by a court.

THEY CANNOT force entry for "any" reason whatsoever. If they state this in writing they are ignorant of, or outside, the law. If the tenant does not want the CORGI man inside, that is it, he doesn't go in. If the gas mains pipe runs through the flats and it cannot be isolated from outside, unless say a number of other flats would be isolated, then hard luck. Even then, to isolate a supply you have to give good reason, such as a gas detector reading gas through the letterbox. To break in for "any" reason, the police have to attend. Also there has to be a good reason to break in, regarding "imminent" safety. Doing an annual CORGI inspection is not enough. If a gas detector was shoved through the letterbox and indicated a gas escape then forcing entry is permitted. If the premised passed an annual CORGI check 12 months earlier and no escape, then no entry. If a tenant refuses the CORGI man in, then if there is damage by explosion then the tenant is liable.

[Mungo Henning]

Or that there is more than one person posting with that identity.

Mungo (Henning)

[IMM]

Some tried that. Obviously some people want to be me which is quite natural as I am suave, exceptionally good looking and can do the tango and cha cha cha like the wind.

[Owain]

"IMM" wrote | "Ed Sirett" wrote | > Many LA/HA landords usually write to their tenants that they wish the gas | > installation to be inspected but make it clear that they will force an | > entry if necessary. It seems improbable that they would take such a line | > if they did not have a legal basis for this. | THEY CANNOT force entry for "any" reason whatsoever. If they state this in | writing they are ignorant of, or outside, the law. If the tenant does not | want the CORGI man inside, that is it, he doesn't go in

However the law *requires* rented property to have an annual CORGI gas check. Most tenancies have a clause in them that they cease if the property becomes uninhabitable, and one can argue that this applies: that the property becomes legally uninhabitable by a tenant. The tenancy ceases, and because the property was rendered uninhabitable by the tenant's actions the tenant is estoppped from action against the landlord.

No court is going to uphold that it is reasonable for a tenant to prevent access to a property for a legally-required and safety-related inspection.

Owain

[Andy Hall]

Hot air, more like. ;-)

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

A tenant does not need to allow anyone into the property. Full stop! If a tenant pays rent and doesn't allow access then you may be right that the property is "uninhabitable". But I doubt a court would say it is "uninhabitable", just because the gas wasn't checked, with no firm evidence to say that the installation is dangerous.

If a tenant does not pay rent and doesn't allow access, the landlord goes through the normal re-possession procedures. If the court gave possession to the landlords, the tenant can ignore the court. then the bailiffs come after a long wait in London, and the tenant move out the day before they come. They give an appointment of the date. The tenant can just walk straight out past the landlord and even call the police to say their may be a breach of the peace. So the police escort the tenant out, keeping the landlord from speaking to them and who may have run up rent arrears of £15,000, and they need not tell anyone where they are going.

The tenant will have a CCJ against them - usually pretty useless as some people collect these and pin them on the wall. The landlord, to get his rightfully owed money has to find out where they work, and then they can get the money taken out of their salary. This may be very difficult, as you do not have to tell anyone where you work. If they are self employed with no assets, such as a house, then tough. The defaulting tenant may have broken the criminal law by giving false references, see if the police give a hoot.

Brilliant laws eh! The UK is a fraudsters paradise and the laws and police aid them.

[IMM]

Astute observation Andy. When I pass people doing the cha cha cha the wind is fiercely hot. It makes their faces red and pushes their hair back. Totally ruins beehive hairdos.

[Dave Plowman]

Too right. Where did you say you got your degree from, again?