Are push fit plumbing fittings any good?

[Matt]

Not surprising Dribble when most of it was written by you.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

We don't use multi-points in the UK these days apart for the DHSS apartments you 'renovate'.

[Roger]

The message from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

I don't think he could be Dribble (using a spell checker) because Dribble couldn't have maintained the separate identity for so long without cocking it up more convincingly than just using the same brand of idiot english. Given that he appeared on this ng shortly after Adam and seems to think, against all the evidence, that the sun shines out of Drivels arse my current theory is that he is Johns younger brother. Only a blood relationship would be strong enough to overcome the derision that dIMMS feeble attempts at erudition engender in the rest of us.

What continues to baffle me is why this pair of anonymous morons continue to infest the newsgroup. Perhaps if we just ignored them (as I have been trying to do over recent weeks) they will go away. Drivel is unhelpful in at least 99% of his posts and I don't recall timegoesby

*ever* giving any useful advice. In fact the only advice (other than worship dIMM) that I can recall that he has given is within this thread. The rather contradictory notion that a hacksaw is to be preferred to a cheap cutter.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

He certainly has a 'style' of writing that reminds one of John. Perhaps that's why he likes his 'poetry'.

[timegoesby]

A Google tells you it is quality and other research tells me that also. I may go and see one. Andrews sell a rebadged Rinnai. It is the ideal appliance for what I need, being cost effective and takes up little space, which both are an added bonus.

[timegoesby]

I wish I renovated those apartments. I could retire in few years if I did.

[Andy Hall]

Ah that's OK then.

Curious. You were talking about renovation of luxury palacial premises recently. Somehow installing a geyser in one (or even out at the back) doesn't seem to fit that image.....

[Richard Conway]

I suspect that big macs are probably the largest produced burgers in the world - but I wouldn't recommend them

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'm wondering why you'd want the 'largest produced multi-point' given the idea is to save space?

[Richard Conway]

I wouldn't - think the OP was after one though ;)

[timegoesby]

Yes. Well some have been one bedroom flats, and others 3 bed semis. All have to be tip top and atractive to sell ASAP to as near to asking price as possible.

Image is delivering the flowrate to the body jet showers. A Rinnai is not an over the bath Ascot. Look at their web site. A nice, neat, slim white box on the rear wall.

[Andy Hall]

Ah. I see.

What flow rate? There was a recent thread here indicating that at least 25-30lpm is needed for such a shower. This is easily achievable with a storage system.

The mid range Rinnai, at 54kW is using almost the entire throughput of a standard domestic gas supply and still manages less than 20lpm, and that is at a 33 degree rather than the standard 35 degree temperature rise. Specifications on some models are for only a 25 degree rise.

It would take the 70kW one and a commercial gas supply to achieve the flow rate needed for a proper body jet shower.

Efficiency is quite poor. The 69kW input model has an output to water of only 55.4kW - around 80%. This would not be allowed for a normal boiler.

In effect, that's exactly what it is, except mounted outside. I can't imagine why anybody would want a big white box on the outside of their house. I would be surprised if their Japanese model is that colour.

I have, and I am very underwhelmed.

I think it's plug ugly.

[Matt]

You are just letting facts get in the way of the argument. :-)

Dribble has already been told many times how the Japs are moving to copper tank storage in their droves but he still can't accept he is wrong.

[David]

In article , [e-mail] writes

I think then that this is where you differ with many in the group timegoesby, its not resale and space saving that are issues for a lot of us. Many of us bought houses to live in and have systems that suit our lifestyle without needing the space that removing a cylinder would give us. The reason John gets into so many arguments is that he won't accept that other people have different needs and not all of us want to change over to a combi when we have well designed systems that give us the performance we require. I am not an expert on heating systems (I have installed three to date though) but even I can accept that there are alternatives to the sort of system I prefer and would change to suit.

[timegoesby]

The Triton requires around 10 litres a minute minimum. The more the better. I haven't seen any that state 30 yet.

With more expense and space taken up.

You exaggerate somewhat. One outside model delivers 24 litres per minute. The Triton Tower Shower takes a minimum of 8 litres per minute at both the cold and hot inlets. The Rinnai can take up to 8 bar. The Tower Showers will be at the maximum the mains can deliver up to 6 bar. Tower showers are not thermostatic. This is where a Rinnai helps as it accurately maintains the hot water temperature. The new 25mm plastic main is delivering around 45 litres per minute at over 4 bar. The high pressure is what people like in these showers. They have diverting levers that switch from one set of jets to another keeping the flow down. Fitting an unvented cylinder is way over the top in price and consumes up lots of space and drops the pressure down to 3 bar or less. The same with a thermal store, except the thermal store operates on higher DHW pressures. I doubt if the floor could take the weight of such a large cylinder, and I am using the old airing cupboard for a shower anyway. The Rinnai will cope with two of them. I have checked it all out, as you can see. The washing machine and dishwaters are cold fill. I "may" fit a combi, which are cheap enough, to do the kitchen sink, utility room and downstairs toilet taps. Then there will be no taps robbing pressure from the Rinnai when full on.

I queried this with Rinnai and they told me water heaters are exempt from being condensing. The efficiency is about the same as boilers that do not condense.

That is the best part of it.

I have not looked at colours as I thought all were white.

A white box is a white box.

[timegoesby]

I would say it is. Most people do things in their homes with a view to add value. That is all people go on about, the value of their homes.

If you are satisfied with your system then leave it. I am not saying go out and buy a Rinnai because it is the new thing to do. Through initially doing it the wrong way, and saved by Internet forums as I was pretty ignorant of CH and water matters, I look at it from an angle of delivering the pressures and flow rates, saving space and cost. That does not mean slapping in an inferior cheap and nasty system. At times saving space and delivering the flow rates is important with cost is way down. Expectations of people are high these days, and many people who buy my houses are not British and come from countries where high pressure showers are not a luxury. I have to deliver. I try to buy products with quality brand names if possible. Bosch has a quality image, so if I can install a Bosch then I will. A Bosch or Neff hob is essential as the name is on show.

I have found combis a God send at times and I know that the more powerful models can fill baths fast enough. The much mocked idea of two combis (on this forum) saved my bacon once, being highly cost effective as well and saved a hell of a lot of installation hassle. Two Bosch Juniors. For what I wanted they were just the business. The Bosch name gave them appeal. When one shower was operating the shower off the second combi had no influence at all. Joining the two to fill the bath meant it was filled in a few minutes.

There are many ways of skinning a cat and I naturally go the quality combi route as first option (I don't buy stuff from B&Q), and now looking at the Rinnai route too if need be, until they can't cope, for whatever reason, and then look at cylinders.

[Andy Hall]

If it's only 10lpm it's going to be pee-willy. Since Triton are an electric shower manufacturer, I suppose that on that scale it would be better than an electric shower. Just.

The expense is not significant, and the space issue isn't either unless it's a one room flat or something.

Not really. The figures are there to see.

?One outside model delivers 24 litres per

That's the *minimum*. 8lpm is nowhere near enough for a body jet shower.

Rinnai's figures are for a 33 degree temperature rise. This means that in the winter, with an incoming water temperature of 5-8 degrees, the output temperature at the stated flow rate will only just about be at shower temperature - there won't be any addition of cold water.

?The Rinnai can take up to 8 bar. The

Says who?

In any case this is irrelevant because the water heater can't heat the water at that rate.

Then it's not a full body jet shower but a compromise - just like an electric shower. These should be able to deliver a good flow rate at all jets simultaneously.

It isn't over the top on price unless you are trying to cut corners and costs. I thought you said that you were doing high quality conversions.

If you have water stored at 60 degrees, you can mix it with cold and achieve an excellent flow rate.

If the floor won't support the weight of a cylinder, I would call in a structural engineer before your luxury conversion collapses in a pile around you.

Two of what? Little pee-willy showers that are like electric ones perhaps, but nothing much more.

Mmmm.... I would suggest looking at the basic physics of all of this rather than relying on the marketing blurb on manufacturer web sites. That's where Drivel goes wrong.

That's normal these days and even if they were hot fill, that is almost irrelevant from the purpose of HW system planning

Huh....??? If you turn on the taps the pressure will drop.

That's true and fairly pathetic. Even the Americans can produce a condensing hot water heater that achieves a 95% efficiency.

As long as you don't mind an ugly white box on the wall. Do you imagine that this would enhance saleability of a property, let alone its appeal?

In Japanese culture, white is the colour associated with death.

Exactly.