Our Daughter would like to build a vivarium for her corn snake and would need a pair of plain glass panes (?) cut and edged for the front sliding doors.
As our local glass shop is closed till Monday, could someone give us some idea what 2 x ~ 19" x 12" x 6mm sheets and 1 x ~ 36" x 12" x 6mm (unpolished edges) would / should cost please?
Also would anyone who knows about such things confirm that *any* silicone (within reason of course) would be ok for sealing corners etc as long as it was left long enough to cure and the smell go away, or should she use 'special' (aquarium?) stuff? ie, Is the need for 'special' silicone just snake oil (sorry). ;-)
Can you d-i-y polish the edges of such glass or isn't the risk / effort worth it please?
Well - the best answer is to phone your friendly local glass place on Monday - but, just as a guide, the stained glass supplier I use (in Ireland) is charging about 1 euro / sq ft for 3mm horticultural glass (-which is fairly cheap & nasty) - and anything from 5 euro upwards / sq ft for 3mm 'art' glass. So - you should be paying nearer the 1 euro price - possibly 3 euro / sq ft - as a complete guess ??
Can't help you there. You might need to make sure that the silicon you use doesn't have any additives - fungicides, etc - as that might be bad news for corn snakes. Possibly safest to use the right 'aquarium' stuff..?
I wouldn't (personally) - and I've been working with stained glass for ten years or so. Grinding the edge of small, non-straight, pieces of glass is an everyday thing - but to do long pieces well you really need a wet-belt sander, followed by a polisher.
You _could_ do it, but so can your friendly local glass merchant - and they have a machine that does an excellent job - with no risk of you accidentally slitting your wrists or slicing tendons....
Ok, but it gives an idea of the order of the costs so thanks.
Good points, down to the small print I guess?
Well I suppose that ensures that it's the most safe (with the lest effort) but what I have often found with such things is this 'special' stuff is (the right) basic stuff in expensive 'do_you_want_dead_animals_on_yer_conscious' packaging and twice the price. :-(
(sounds a rewarding hobby or good job, seeing you finished efforts on full display, not buried under the floorboards etc)?
Ah, so probably not worth it for the occasional use. Mind, I did buy a wen_n_dry bench grinder recently and it was silly cheap?
Ah, and although we probably all have some d-i-Y related scars as memories of our projects, there are some things that are just not worth it (like I don't do roofs ..(I'm not frightened of heights, just don't like approaching the ground at speed!)).
True - but in this particular case, & bearing in mind it's the daughter's corn snake - it might be worth getting 'the right stuff' - doncha think ?
It's somewhere between a rewarding hobby & a good job at the moment - did it semi-commercially last year, and being a bit more proactive with my selling this year....
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if you're interested.
You really need some way of holding the glass firmly while you wet'n'dry it - if it 'chatters' at all then you're back to square one. I think that the commercial kit tends to use quite a wide abrasive belt - as most of their work is on long straight things like shelves & doors
I don;t mind the scars that remind you of your projects - the most important piece of kit in my stained glass studio is the 'Elastoplast' dispenser - but when you mess with the sharp edges of glass sheets (as in polishing by hand) you can end up with serious cuts very quickly.
I've kept various species of snake for quite a few years.
There's a number of points here to consider. Corn snakes are among the more robust, but still need to be cared for well.
As far as the glass is concerned, I would get the edges of anything that will be removed smoothed and slightly rounded. It would also be a very good idea to have the front door pieces toughened, or to buy laminated glass. While this doesn't make them immune to breakage, you don't really want to have a situation where a door gets broken on a Saturday afternoon when cleaning and the glass shop isn't open until Monday. Another option is to have a spare piece cut and put it away somewhere.
- Vivarium size and shape are important. Something suitable for the snake now may not be in a year when it's pretty much full grown.
- Cleanliness and the ability to clean the vivarium are very important. For that reason, the typical pet shop vivarium boxes made from laminated chipboard are not that good at all. It's necessary as part of the cleaning processes to wipe the surfaces and sometimes spray with appropriate disinfectants. Usually the shop vivaria have silicone sealer at the joins, but often this isn't that well done and in any case there is a tendency for liquids to find their way into the joins. Once that happens, the chipboard deteriorates rapidly and it becomes harder to maintain cleanliness. Also, the front sliding doors running in cheap plastic tracks are quite unsatisfactory unless the tracks can be removed for cleaning.
- There are various infections to which snakes are susceptible and some can be difficult to address - for example around the mouth, lungs and skin. Generally these are treatable, but courses of antibiotics tend to be measured in weeks rather than days, as for humans because of the lower body temperature. Ergo, you want to do the utmost to avoid infection in the first place.
- Snakes are certainly sensitive to toxins and conventional silicones should not be used. There is aquarium stuff which does not have the additives of the bathroom stuff.
A much better solution for a vivarium for snakes is to have something that is much more easily cleaned than anything where the surfaces in contact with the animals involve wood of any form or laminates. I've used three different approaches, but there are others:
- Take or make a wooden vivarium but line it with glass or perspex sheet, sealing the joints
- The opposite to the above. Make or obtain a glass vivarium but clad it in some way to suit your decor.
- Polypropylene vivarium. These aren't always easy to obtain. Most are made in the U.S. and imported. I have one of these for a pair of Brazilian Rainbow Boas, although that is partly because they require an environment of 80% relative humidity and a temperature of around 30 degrees. A conventional vivarium would not survive this for long. OTOH, these vivaria are essentially indestructible and meet all of the other crtiteria.
It's also important to have temperature gradient in the vivarium and places for the animal to hide other than by burying itself in the substrate. There are different ways to do this, but the cast resin shell type hides are good and can be sterilised.
Another very good idea is to have some backup in case bad things happen to the main vivarium. To that end, I have a fairly large plastic transport box - probably about 400 x 300 x 250. I keep a spare heat mat and thermostat. This means that if the vivarium equipment fails completely, I can put the snakes into the box and at least keep them warm. For that matter, if there's a power cut, I can even take them somewhere else.
Oh, indeed, I was just saying we can often get taken for a ride, you only have to see some of the stuff on eBay for that. No actual 'added value' in the product other than putting it on there and marketing it suitably.
Hmm, and all that 'speculate to accumulate' stuff .. you need a bit bravado to put yer last few quid in an advert but they say it's often the right (only?) thing to do ..
I am, as is my Daughter (she especially likes craft and design, makes her own cards etc). We went to a couple of glass works whilst on our motorcycle / camping holidays in Norfolk somewhere and they put on some glass blowing / forming demonstrations for the public (actually more a viewing gallery over the std workshops). We stayed there ages, just fascinated with the whole process! The irony though is I dare say that many of you / their items would be purchased simply as 'trinkets' without the buyer really knowing (or caring in most cases?) what effort / skill / kit / materials had gone into the process. :-(
Whilst in Cheddar (also on a motorcycle trip) we saw a guy making glass ornaments and as it was the wife's birthday I asked him if he would actually make her an elephant (she was collecting them at the time) rather than just buying one off the shelf that he had made earlier.
He was happy to do so and again we were amazed how he worked glass like it was chewing gum or some such.
We had to leave it a few hours before collection as he said you could never predict what would happen as it cooled.. :-(
I'm not sure a few chatter marks would matter in the side of a glass door but I get your point.
So nice long straight / smooth faces.
I bet ... because I don't work with glass very often I generally 'respect' it quite a bit when I do.
I used normal sealant to make the piping to the pond filter box sound a few years ago. Thankfully wife assumed the sudden disappearance of the fish was due to a virus introduced by frogs. ;-)
Indeed. She (they, she does this with her boyfriend) had a pair of young Ball Pythons (from the same place) but they both died within days of each other after a couple of months, hence the corn snakes now (the boyfriend has successfully kept many other types of snakes in the past).
So is your latter point the general reason why stronger is better please Andy?
Understood. I think it has been recommended for this corn snake (sub
1m at the moment) is something ~70l should be sufficient so she was going to make her 36 x 12 x 12" (mainly because it would fit her work top nicely at those dimensions). Also I think this is supposed to be a 'weekend / holiday' lodge for her snake that normally lives with all the others at her b/f Mums house.
Ok ..
She was looking at lengths of furniture board and I was talking of siliconing / sealing the joints (as you observed) but hopefully will have done it properly. ;-)
Yup, understood, like kitchen base units under the sink .. :-(
Oh, what is a better solution then please Andy?
Ok (and I'd guessed as much)
I (who nothing of such structures or replies) suggested that to her.
I suggested similar re building it to take a suitably sized shallow 'tray'?
Well, she was considering making a sort of hybrid viv, with a glass back (as that faces a non sunny window) to provide a bit of light in at the back? So the only vulnerable joints would be the two at either side at the bottom (and I was going to ensure they had a good silicone bead)?
Spooky, I asked her if there wasn't such a thing .. or even for us to make one from fiberglass (or glassing over ply like they do the d-i-y small dinghys)?
Ah, the likes of Pennine, URS, Herptek etc?
Ok. Downsides may be custom sizes not available and some are quite expensive!
Ok thanks. I believe our daughter mentioned some sort of heat mat, placed towards one end so there was a choice of temperatures for the snake.
I have seen those used when they had their Royal Pythons.
Yep, good idea to plan for such eventualities.
I think she would be happy just to have her whole room at snake temperature .. maybe that's the appeal. ;-)
All the best and thanks very much for all the good advice / info Andy.
Ah yes - it's all in the marketing There was a series of cartoons in 'Punch' many years ago - on the topic of the village fete. Attractive young lady behing a sign saying 'Oral Sex - one shilling' Two commentators looking at sign - one says to the other 'Actually, it's the kisses for a shilling stall - but she works in marketing !'
No - complete waste of money as far as my experience goes. Far better to work the weekend open-air markets, and any other events that present themselves. Came away from the last 2-day event with several hundred euro worth of (glass) commissions, plus a couple of websites to design ...
Ah - that's where the marketing comes in. Everything that I make is a 'one-off' - which is a great selling point. Even the kiln-fused glass earrings are 'unique works of art' ....
Funny stuff - glass. The hottest I go is what's known as 'warm glass' - which is up to 850c or so. Between room temperature and 850c you can bend glass, make it stick to itself, let it 'fall' over a plaster mould and 'carve' out its shape, or let it fuse into shiny drops.
He's right. That's why, when you take glass up beyond about 600c it takes anything from 4 - 20 hours to cool. Rush it and you'll biuld up stresses which will / may / could cause the glass to fracture or shatter at some time in the future.
That's right.
You can get too familar with it - that's when you get the annoying little splinters up under the fingernails (it's as painful as it sounds !)
And as you say on your site, even if they started off identically before they go in the kiln .. ;-)
Bizarre eh ..
Ok, he did look like he knew what he was talking about! ;-)
I bet. Even when helping my mate fit 10 dg windows and doors I was very 'aware' when carrying the units and even more so when offering them into place (they were heavy and 'stiff / hard' if not sharp). When it came to actually knocking the glazing beads into place again I was aware of not pushing or holding the panes that if they should break I wouldn't put my arm through the break!
Well, one way would be to buy a ready made plastic one (as per Andy's advice) but she seems keen to make it herself (and I'm not sure we can buy one in the right size anyway) so as long as I see that we can make a sufficiently good job of it to ensure it was good for the snake then I might let her carry on.
On the subject of plastic I think I know where I can get suitable sheets of semi rigid material so could form up a 'waterproof' tray for a wooden (ConitBoard) viv (that should help it last).
I certainly wouldn't use ordinary 'horticultural' glass. Mature corn snakes can hit the doors quite a belt, when they're trying to attract your attention! Plate glass would be the order of the day.
You could buy a proper vivarium for that amount. I must've been extremely lucky to have been given a large vivarium for my corn snakes for nothing... If I was looking for another one, I'd ask on FreeCycle before parting with cash. It's amazing the stuff that gets offered on FreeCycle groups!
Ok, don't they generally use 4mm for that though and we would go for
6mm (as I believe they would (you must?) use in domestic glazed doors etc?
Yeah, she did say 'Pop' (or Psycho as he was named before she got him apparently!!) is quite strong already.
Ok, well if we stay on the d-i-y route that we will ask regarding that also. If we carry on like this we will end up with bullet proof glass! ;-)
Well, the ones she had seen that she likes were over £100 but I dare say you are right on that. I like the idea of the plastic ones in that they would be impervious to fluid damage but the problem with all mass produces vivs is getting one the right size for the space in her room. Re-laying the room isn't really an option (small box room with built in raised bed etc) so it would have to be custom made, modified by or made by us.
Yup, some people have all the luck Anne ... :-(
Good idea (accepting the size issues mentioned above etc), I've got her b/f into Freecycle and use it quite a bit myself ..
Indeed. Funnily enough (whilst on the subject) a mate was about to put in the skip 3 x large (2m x 1.5m x 12mm) sheets of plate / counter top glass. I stuck them on FC for him and they were 'Taken' within about 5 mins (and collected as promised the next day).
I'm due to collect some flower pots for Mum later .. ;-)
In comparison, corn snakes are much easier. Deaths of the ball pythons could have been that both had an infection that wasn't noticed until too late or perhaps a genetic issue.
You didn't say how old she was. Could have been a nine year old. Even so, I think it's worth having sensible toughness and contingency.
Might be a bit small when the snake is fully grown. If they can't stretch out fully then they are under greater stress. This can lead to greater susceptibility to disease.
Do you mean like the edge laminated shelf stuff? That's better than chipboard. I would treat it with agood quality solvent based varnish
Arrange for the tracks to be removable and the area underneath cleanable. This is easy in a polypropylene tank but harder in a wooden one.
Suggest again. This is definitely a situation where function over form applies. There are loads of ways to prettify a boring plastic or glass box. The opposite is harder.
You can do that, but the more the number of surfaces, nooks and crannies, the harder to clean
The snake may not appreciate too much light. Corn snakes are fairly tolerant, but I keep my Rainbow Boas in relatively dark surroundings. Look at the photos of the head and the size of the eyes and it's pretty obvious.
In comparison, corn snakes are much easier. Deaths of the ball pythons could have been that both had an infection that wasn't noticed until too late or perhaps a genetic issue.
You didn't say how old she was. Could have been a nine year old. Even so, I think it's worth having sensible toughness and contingency.
Might be a bit small when the snake is fully grown. If they can't stretch out fully then they are under greater stress. This can lead to greater susceptibility to disease.
Do you mean like the edge laminated shelf stuff? That's better than chipboard. I would treat it with agood quality solvent based varnish
Arrange for the tracks to be removable and the area underneath cleanable. This is easy in a polypropylene tank but harder in a wooden one.
Suggest again. This is definitely a situation where function over form applies. There are loads of ways to prettify a boring plastic or glass box. The opposite is harder.
You can do that, but the more the number of surfaces, nooks and crannies, the harder to clean
The snake may not appreciate too much light. Corn snakes are fairly tolerant, but I keep my Rainbow Boas in relatively dark surroundings. Look at the photos of the head and the size of the eyes and it's pretty obvious.
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