Any new regulations about boilers?

[David W.E. Roberts]

Hi,

it has been suggested to me that the regulations about boilers have recently changed, and now you have to use a new, very expensive, very high efficiency condensing boiler.

The implication being that you can no longer use combis.

I had a quick trawl and saw no 'doom and gloom' posts so I assume that this may not be so.

Are there any recent new regulations?

If so, what are the implications?

I may be wanting to change a gas fire/back boiler combination for something more modern and possibly more efficient.

TIA

Dave R

[David W.E. Roberts]

err...O.K. - I was searching on the wrong thing.

Now found the thread on Part L (condensing)

Not that I am any less confused.

[John Rumm]

Yes, sort of...

Part L of the building regs stipulate a higher minimum efficiency than can be usually be achieved with conventional boiler technology. Hence the need for condensing ones.

They are not *that* much more expensive however, and ought to cost less in the long run due to reduced fuel costs.

(some might throw in the IMHO specious argument that the extra complexity will result in more breakdowns. The reality is that there is little if any extra complexity if you compare a modern condensor to a modern conventional boiler)

No, you can get combi HE boilers...

Proposed a couple of years back, came into force this April

That new installs should be condensing boilers (in most cases - there are exceptonal cases where a conventional boiler can still be used). One additional step while plumbing in to provide a drain for the condensate.

[Ian_m]

Back boliers can still be replaced by a conventional boiler if you/plumber/engineer can prove a condensing boiler would not be suitable. My mate in a terraced house has just had his 1974 backboiler replaced with a brand new Baxi back boiler. Unable to fit a condensiung boiler due to no suitable vent point and no easy method for a drain apparently. Also had system converted from gravity HW to pumped HW whilst at it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

These are probably the least efficient of any older designs so should produce the largest savings when replaced with a condenser.

[Bert Coules]

I looked into this for my parents, who were thinking of replacing their entire central heating and hot water system. The thought that occurred to them, and to me, and which I've not seen mentioned at all, is this: what is the new requirement going to do to the boiler-manufacturing industry? Is the production of conventional non-condensing boilers simply going to stop now, except for a mere trickle of products for those cases where a condensing model can be proven to be impossible to install?

Bert

[David W.E. Roberts]

This would apply if I were to directly replace the existing boiler. It is slap bang in the middle of the house with a fake chimney breast and vent (liner?) straight up through the middle of the roof.

However I am likely to redo the ground floor to open it up and I wouldn't mind losing the chimney breast in the lounge.

So now I am into the 1 combi/ 2 combi/ heat store debate. Oh, the hours of innocent enjoyment.

I like our current power shower arrangement with a large indirect cylinder and large pump serving two showers.

Relatives have houses with combis which seem to work fine.

More later - have to buy the house first :-)

Cheers Dave R

[John Rumm]

Since many makers will sell to wider international markets than just the UK, I doubt there will be a rapid decline in ordinary boiler production. There are sure to be a good number of countries that do not require condensors.

[Bert Coules]

production.

require

You know, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

Bert

[Mike]

Like ?

Most countries are far shorter of gas than we are and so are well ahead of us on efficiency drives.

[John Rumm]

The US is typically in a class of its own regarding these things ;-)

I agree with the sentiment that some of europe is ahead of us in the drive for efficency - not sure how that translates into part L style legislation in those countries though.

[John]

Has anyone done a serious comparison of the level of beauracracy and rules between the EU countries relating to our fat idiots departments output? In other words what is their equivalent of part L, Part M, Part P or any other nannying legislation.

[John Rumm]

Yes that would be interesting to know...

I get the feeling (not supported by any hard data however) that the UK is more into DIY as a cultural thing than some of the more promenent other EU members, so perhaps it is a question that does not get asked there as often.

[Andrew Gabriel]

In the two other EU countries I know best, there isn't a chance in hell anyone would take any notice of such legislation as Part L or Part P, and I've not seen any evidence in practice that it exists (although it may do in theory only).

In the other EU countries I know, it is so much easier to get a reliable tradesman in without the feeling that you're being ripped off or getting a bad job done, that there is less incentive to DIY. However, there's plenty of DIY done too, but possibly not as much as in the UK.

[Mike]

True. But gut feeling is that their boilers are incompatable with the rest of the world just like their cars and household applianced.

Part L is driven by the EU directive on climate change so you will find this is quite closely adhered to across Europe. Of course the actual implementation varies - you don't need double glazing in Spain or Italy but you do need good insulation in the south facing roof and highly reflective house paint outside to cut down on air conditioner use. Conversely in Sweden triple glazing is fast becoming the norm.

Moving away from the building regs, the UK white goods manufacturers are well behind the Germans, Swedes and Italians on energy and water use - though of course we have far more water (so far) so the second isn't quite such a problem.

[Mike]

production.

I have a friend who works in the EU and does look at this sort of thing, not perhaps from a "level of bureaucracy" view but certainly on how effective legislation is. Each country has its strong and weak points but he has mentioned our resistance to wind power and our huge number of exempt buildings (e.g. listed buildings) as an issue.

[Mike]

I think you can judge this quite well by what the successful stores sell. In the UK B&Q mostly sell DIY stuff (though I sense this is moving slowly), in France Castorama do sell tools and so on but devote more space to lifestyle goods. In Germany and Italy one rarely sees tools for sale except in the specialist tool trade shops similar to ones we used to have here.

And in Sweden you get Ikea :-( Says it all really.

However China is enjoying a huge DIY boom, plus the USA and Canada of course love using their toys themselves, so it isn't just us.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Well, no actually. It's enjoying a large boom in DIY 'sheds', with a wide range of products on display but there's no DIY. When the tradesman's time costs a small fraction of the price of the goods, there's no point in any DIY. People browse the sheds with their tradesman and buy the products, and the tradesman then takes them to the clients' home and fits them.

[jim_in_sussex]

Isn't the main quibble about temperature fall between flow and return? Get that wrong & condensers are a false economy.

[John Rumm]

Get it wrong and you will get less increase in economy... but it will still be better than a conventional boiler - so its not a false economy as such.