Another stab at the FAQ

[bigcat]

integrity.

I think thats a fair point. A solution would be to quote a real example or 2. Cordless screwdrivers have occasioanlly been spotted for as litle as =A35, yet a dewalt codless screwdriver is =A384.99 in screwfix. Kinzo Mitre saws are =A326.75 from toolstation, Dewalts can cost as much as =A3589 (screwfix).

inferior since

But often, though not always, just as capable of doing the job. Longevity doesnt matter when youre only doing a few days work.

There are people that will only hire tools for this reason. If they realise its cheaper to buy and give it away in the pub for a fiver, they sometimes will.

sure its done. The guy buying power devils for a 1 month job will need to buy more than one of each. If you can get a backup tool for =A35-20, and a lost days work will put you out =A370, of course you buy 2.

We also have to make this suitable for all readers. Some people reading this will be wandering heavy drinkers who tend to lose their tools each time they move.

Might be handy on a separate page, list and a few brief words on quality & price.

'hammer'

hammer drills use 2 serrated heavy duty washers, one stationary, one spinning. If you push on the drill, the 2 washers collide so many times per rev, giving a low speed low energy hammering. Very basic, but works.

NT

[Andy Hall]

All of which is kind of odd, since they position White above Perform.

I've looked at these sanders as well from several vendors. It seemed to me that this was a case where there was not a huge difference from low to mid range and that you had to go to a rather larger or higher end one to see a substantial difference.

[John Rumm]

Given I am working from a sample size of one, it is entirely possible that I picked the one decent tool from the range!

I would be interested to see what the perform thicknesser is like though. I would only need it for light duties and at the price it looks attractive especially if it were comparable to the sander.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Certainly makes a lot of noise. ;-)

[John Rumm]

Always a good sign ;-)

Who me? All of the mentioned items - shelves to loft conversions to aspiring cabinet maker...

How about "Ten (or even more) times the price"?

How so? (brands that target the budget sector do so with badged tools in general... Ferm may be an exception - they do have some manufacturing capability I believe)

Yup I don't really like using quality in that way since it is much like the ad man's use of "performance" or "best" - they are all relative terms used in appropriately.

It goes to more than just stonger though. A cheap router with 1/8" of latteral backlash in its plunge mechanism will give shoddy results not because of lack of strength.

I shall have a reword on that...

"your mindset" even?

Not sure - I have certainly done it, I get the impression many people do as well.

No, I did mean buy more than one at once... I see that suggested on this group as a solution with reasonable frequency. Perhaps somone who does this would care to comment?

Hmmm.... thing of a word that coveys, good dust collection, lack of vibration, handles placed just where you need, controls falling right under your fingertips. Actions happening smoothly without jerks. Lock nuts being winged or knurled and not neeeding tools, a noise that while perhaps not quiet is not all rattle, squeek and screach. Not needing ot use excess force and so on...

I did...

I am a tad wary of putting figures to it in isolation since they are too dependant on circumstances to ever be right. Examples could go in though... I also include a link to the SDS section for more info (I did not want to included too much SDS info in the conventional drill section, since it would only end up duplicating what came later).

Not usre if they are all built alike in this respect. The first ones to market actually used a small pneumatic compressor to drive the hammer.

will add someplace...

[Owain]

I'm surprised they don't use inverter technology to give 240 volts inside the drill. "Mains Power With Cordless Convenience!!!!! Shriek!!!! Bang!!!! Vroom!!!! Whizz!!!!"

Owain

[John Rumm]

High speed low energy.... (>20k blows per min are are not uncommon).

SDS will not usually do much more than 4k blows per min.

[John Rumm]

Most of the changes from this thread are now in place (a few still to do).

I have just added a "starter for ten" section on Routers:

let rip on that....

[Andy Hall]

Well.....

In this area I'm definitely spoiled because I have a combination machine with planer/thicknesser. A pretty substantial affair.

However I have used the midrange portable thicknessers in the Axminster White CT344 bracket before.

You can get respectable results from these with softwoods and most hardwoods as long as you aren't too ambitious with how much wood you want to cut at once.

There are a lot of products around in that category at around the £300-350 price mark and they will do a respectable job. There was a review of about 10 of them in Fine Woodworking a little while ago with prices from $290 - $390 and then Delta at $430 and Makita at $480. The main differences were efficiency of dust extraction and how long it took to change the blades. The reviewer found the machines around the $390 range the best value. The more expensive ones had slightly better mechanics in terms of being parallel and having less snipe ( this is an effect from the mechanics that marks the end of the wood)

confuse you, Americans call what we call a thicknesser a planer, and what we call a planer, a jointer.

The CT344 appears to be in about the equivalent to the reviewed ones at around $400, so at the then exchange rate and remembering that US prices are shown net of tax, this is about right.

I took a brief look at one of the Perform ones at last year's Axminster show, although not working. I presume you mean the CC10T.

In comparison with the CT344 type of machine, it is light weight, so their describing it as "hobby" is fair. In comparison, the support tables are quite light in weight and the mechanism has more slop. It's only 250 vs 300mm, which might catch you out on some boards, but probably not that many.

I suspect that changing the knives and getting them properly adjusted could be quite time consuming.

However, it is half the price.

For any of these machines you really do need a reasonable extractor. They produce a lot of chips even on a fairly fine setting. I'm sceptical that the recommended BB100, which is more like a shop-vac and only has a 58mm hose would be good enough unless you were taking really fine cuts of say 1mm or so. Generally for thicknessers you need air volume and velocity. Normally, at least a

100mm hose hookup and extractor is needed, even with a portable thicknesser. If I was going to buy these things, I think I'd want to see them working together. Axminster are normally pretty honest on things like this and it could be that the BB100 is enough for the Perform, however the 100mm extractors start at £290, which is out of line price-wise with the CC10T.

It might be worth a call to their place in Faversham to see if they have one set up.

If you didn't expect too much from the CC10T, it's probably not bad value for money. You could probably improve it by building support arrangements around it to support the wood on the way in and out. I think I have some plans for this somewhere. You probably won't eliminate snipe, so would have to plan on writing off the last 250mm or so of wood at the end of a run.

I think that this is something that has to be viewed as an entry level investment. If you then like the idea of what it does, going to a machine in the £300-400 range would make a significant difference, but obviously there wouldn't be a huge payback from sale of the CC10T.

You also need safety equipment.

With an extractor in this category, a dust mask would be very advisable, especially if you are working on hardwoods.

Ear defenders are a very good idea - these are noisy machines, although are quieter with lighter cuts.

With all woodworking machinery, I think that safety glasses are mandatory.

[bigcat]

Yeah. With the sds the reaction force is on the internal hammer, which is not rigidly coupled to the drill body. With hammer drills, the drill body is what provides the counterweight, the whole drill body is being directly hammered on, so it has a sounding board effect.

John Rumm wrote:n article , [e-mail] wrote:

Yeah, low energy is unavoidable because the hammering speed must be low, and the weight of the drill limited. The hammering frequency is made high to provide some amount of improvement.

The washers must be very shallowly cut, otherwise the impacts, which cause much friction, will stop the rotation. hence the speed of the hammering mass is low. The friction means more motor power is needed.

Makes sense, youve got a real hammer-lump in there swinging back and forth. Only so fast you can do that.

Frintrest, sds gives you less hammering weight than hammer drill, but far more hammering speed. By speed I mean speed of weight impact, not hammering frequency.

NT

[Andy Hall]

I prefer OSPF on my routers......

(you have to drop them in when you can)

[bigcat]

great. Though I think you may have misspelt, its orgy, not ogee :)

NT

[Phil Addison]

Ahh, that was simply a meant to be a suggestion to use a capital "W" in the heading "What do you mean by DIY?"

Yeah, whatever. Anything non-controversial.

In "Examples of all the popular tools can be found in a budget form, typically costing £30 or less" I took "popular tools" to mean those that are *not* budget, and hence made by named firms (Bosch etc), and thence that you are talking about budget versions made by those firms. So then to say they are 'badged' [my spell-checker wanted to change that to bodged :-)] contradicts that.

So retracted. If things can be read two ways, I'll get the wrong one ;-)

That's true

Something like "Better designed to overcome the weaknesses of the budget range, e.g. with sturdier materials, better fits, bearings, tolerances, alignments... " ?

Whatever. It's a minor quibble.

Does that make you a fluffer? :-)

I meant that the diminutive ?fluff? seemed a bit colloquial, and may not be widely understood.

I bow to the views of them what done it, yer honour.

Exactly.

Thesaurus lists 'comfort' as: meaning 'soothe' (v): Soothe, console, reassure, calm, relieve, ease, placate. meaning 'ease' (n): ease, luxury, cosiness, relief, wellbeing, security, relaxation, contentment. meaning 'consolation' (n): consolation, Reassurance, relief, cheer, solace, succour. Meaning 'cheer' (v): cheer, cheer up, encourage, gladden, hearten, bolster.

Not much help there then :-(

What about "Convenient and pleasant to use"?

I meant referencing their urls. Actually, if there are to be any, it would be best to put them in

not already there

Point taken, but I thought 'wipe the floor' a bit vague. Most people on the diy ng that have used an sds for the first time are surprised by the difference and use analogies like 'knife through butter' - Not that I advocate that particular wording.

A description of how they derive their power, compared to the cam-disks in conventional hammers, should help to understand the difference between these tool classes.

Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at

Google uk.d-i-y archive is at NOSPAM from address to email me

[Phil Addison]

Yes. I was querying the clarity of the information, not the factual correctness.

Your suggestion is....?

I knew that :-0

I was asking how the *SDS* works . Err... that's why I put it under "SDS Drills". ;-)

Anyway, "serrated heavy duty washers" is not the right description - the 'washers' are actually hardened thrust discs that have a number of wedge shaped cam steps on their opposing faces. Serrated means something is cut right away, as in a saw-tooth, to leave sharp projections.

Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at

Google uk.d-i-y archive is at NOSPAM from address to email me

[Phil Addison]

Its hammering energy. E = MV^2, so the higher the frequency the bigger the thump (squared).

Assuming the weight moves through the same distance, its impact speed is proportional to frequency.

What I want to know is the form of mechanisms (electrical and pneumatic) that are used to move the weight.

Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at

Google uk.d-i-y archive is at NOSPAM from address to email me

[bigcat]

its one factor.

will be true for sds, but more complex with hammer drills.

pneumatic)

NT

[John Rumm]

I have used a slightly older version of the 344 (354 perhaps - it had sharpenable blades rather than disposable - but hence you had to set them up correctly), which (looking at the photos of the perform did not seem that dissimilar. The tables on the White one I used were really a tad on the short side, but I get the impression that you really need to go to the CT330 to fix that one well enough.

The one I used was a bit snipey - but only on the last 6" of timber (partly because the tables were short). Using roller stands either side mostly eliminated it.

In a sense even if I had bought it I would still have actually saved money since I was able to buy sawn timber and make up all the door linings and other bits of second fix carpentry I needed for my loft conversion at a saving of several hundred over buying finished timber. As it happened I borrowed it, so it was a better deal still ;-)

Can't see the width reduction being that much of an issue.

True... again on light use (and with care to avoid nails etc) that should not need doing too often.

You can say that again! - I generated four bin bags full just on the door linings.

I already have a 1hp SIP twin bag chip collector which actually did a fine job with the thicknesser I borrowed.

I paid 115 for my one - from a commercial seller on eBay - basically they flog em, SIP fulfil the delivery etc themselves.

Yup might do that next time I head that way...

Tis one of those items that I would probably only use sparingly, so could live with a lower spec one (probably). I think if I were spending more then I would go for the CT330 for its longer tables and carriage lock.

The only slightly cludgy thing with the Axminster one was the way that with the dust collection cowl attached you can't fold up the table on that side. It does do a very good job of collecting 99% of the waste though.

got plenty of that...

I found that only way to work on decent sized timber was to take over the back garden anyway... the workshop is long enough to hold 3m long planks, but not feed them in and out of a machine!

As with most planes, it is at a note that quickly knocks out a hearing band if you are not very careful.

I use one of the Axminster full face visors which I much prefer to goggles (which never work well over glasses I find).

[John Rumm]

You are assuming that the hammer motion is symetrical... it may be slow recoil, quick thump, which would throw out any assumptions made on frequency alone ;-)

[John Rumm]

Oh, ok ;-) that was easy enough...

Whatever turns you on.... in fact on second thoughts, I don't think I want to know ;-)

OK left it as comfort, but added a footnote to expand on what it means.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Looking at the plates on one old B&D, it's a sort of sine wave. Whereas something approaching a square wave would be more suitable. Maltese cross arrangement?