Alarm advice with cats in mind.

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wrote:

all
If I tell you, then I'd have to kill you so it didn't go any further. :-))
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:-))
Roughly translated - he's talking through his arse.
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You stick to fitting the systems and I'll stick to making properties secure.
Roughly translated to - Shut the f*^k up.
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secure.
How?
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If I start to tell folks how a professional installs security equipment then it wouldn't be very secure. Would it ? Electronic security is, and always has been, the last line of defence in all security systems. So having an alarm today with all the DIY products on the market, is like having a flag telling people you have things they want to steal from you.
You, yourself, should know how easy it is to fool an alarm system into thinking it is not being attacked, and on that point it is not possible to be one hundred percent sure that your system is going to be effective in preventing someone from attacking you property.
If you don't know how these procedures work, then I'll say again, you stick to fitting the electronic systems, and I'll stick to making property secure.
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Well that's a failure to understand security at line 1. You cannot achieve security through obscurity.
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:21:57 GMT, "BigWallop"

Oh come on, that's a pretty poor argument.
It isn't as though we are talking about the ultrasecret (aka British knowledge of Enigma during WW2) is it?
Alarm installers and security consultants are not part of some secret brotherhood with initiation rituals are they?
As somebody already said, it becomes a question of the perceived or actual value of the prize, and then making and maintaining the counter measures to achieve an acceptable level of risk, considering the miscreants that are likely to attack the target.
Obfuscation is one way of achieving a level of security, but not a particularly effective one.
It does seem that your points are understandably about protecting a commercial business or trade against the onslaught of DIY.
That's fine, but at the end of the day, the market is the market. Some people will call in professional installers and pay the money, others will put in what they can buy in the DIY sheds as cheaply as possible. In the middle, there are people who would like to select and buy professional materials and install them themselves armed with an appropriate level of knowledge.
I was hoping that you might have had some useful information to impart to this latter group, who are not setting out to secure a bank, but who are not going to employ a professional.
Using your own point about information, if I fit various security measures to my property that are a subset of a vast menu, then I know about them and nobody else. If I employ a professional, then at least one more person knows about them, and if it is a professional installation is undoubtedly also documented somewhere.
.andy
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Andy Hall wrote:

Still nobody has given the magic answer to how to conceal a cable from a door sensor without chasing. I can only draw the conclusion that PJO has a bendy drill, or loves RF wireless.
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Toby.

'One day son, all this will be finished'
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Yes, I do have a bendy drill. Bought it in USA years ago. It bends to around 30 degrees.
OK, here's a rough "how to" (without a bendy!)
If it's a concealed type contact fit it approx 4 inches up the frame. Drill the necessary 20mm hole and then use a 16 inch drill (readily available) to drill down through the 20mm hole to floor level. Drill a suitable hole into the skirting at floor level and then simply fish the cable. If there is a floor void then drill all the way down into that and fish from under. For top mounted contacts drill the 20mm home in the head and then use a long drill (1 metre drills are also readily available) to drill up through the wall/plaster until you reach the next floor/loft level and then fish the cable accordingly. If the contact is surface, i.e. on a PVC door, then you can use the same methods but you may have to silicone up the fish holes.
That is a very brief explanation for the guy who does not believe and like I said earlier I have installed thousands of systems and never once have I shown a cable.
Think about it... most systems are contacts and PIR's. Drilling door frames as above hides the contact cables. Windows (if you really must) can be done similar. As for PIR's, fit them at ceiling height of just below the coving and again drill up at an angle into the floor/loft space and fish. Try to bring all wiring from above. Try to install the panel upstairs in a cupboard/wardrobe and a keypad downstairs. With some fore thought you can have a super neat installation which is quicker than clipping cables all over the place. Also try to use ID systems to minimise wiring. I can install a decent system in a four bed detached - 6 PIR's, front door, a couple of PA's, etc - in just one full day. The average DIYer should certainly be able to do it PROPERLY in a weekend!
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A very valid point. I can remember around 12 years ago a rather well known London based alarm company sent in an engineer to do some routine service work on a customers alarm system. While there, the engineer shorted out some detectors and that night the place was screwed by his mates. The engineer fully expected to be returned to the job to hide his work but tragically for him a different engineer was sent who then discovered the shorts. The engineer ended up in clink and the companies reputation throughout the industry was severely damaged.
And that also brings me back to the point I raised above of it being an absolute must to have anti-tamper wiring to ALL parts of the system. PIR's etc are very easy to short out once you have the lid off.
So yes, involving any third party, inc. professional companies, does involve some risk.
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Absolutely. If a 'pro' like PJO was asked to fix a fault on my system with the home made relay interface, he'd run a mile. Pros like to deal with things they know and understand. With a security system, this ain't necessarily a good idea given that a 'pro' burglar who could defeat such things will have had to learn his 'trade' somewhere too...
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Dead right I'd run a mile. I wouldn't even take over a system installed by another engineer. As others have said some so called engineers are butchers.
You home made bits though are about as easy to defeat as switching off a light when compared to a proper installation. I have installed ID systems since 1990 (I installed the very first one) and I can honestly say that I wouldn't have a clue how to defeat on by attacking the wiring etc. Any other system, even end of line resistor systems - easy.
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Once again, how do you know? You've not seen what I've done. I'd say it's in fact more secure than the main panel.

My system pre-dates the common availability of those. But like everything, they will be capable of being defeated by someone who understands them.

There comes a point when you have to decide what you really need - for most homes, money spent on making the house secure is better than any fancy alarm, given how most are ignored due to the frequency of false alarms from even pro fitted systems.
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*Plagiarism saves time *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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stick
secure.
Nice cop-out.
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wrote:

I realise that, but I was rather hoping that you might enlarge on exactly how, to the benefit of the assembled gathering....
Low voltage wiring for the purposes of alarms, networking and the like is increasingly popular and I am sure that the group would welcome information on ways to install cables etc. with minimum visual impact or the need to redecorate.
.andy
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Each and ever job is done at ht etime and to suit. There are no specific rules or ways so no, sorry, I can't help. I'd literally have to show you.

Again, using proper tools, patience and skill. Metre long drills, flexidrills and wire coat hangers usually suffice!
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wrote:

I'm not sure this question is related to what you have said, but I'll ask it anyway.
The metre long drill....do I assume that you drill across the width of a door or window in order to run the cable thru the door from a magnetic switch to the hinge side?
I'd be interested to know how you manage to keep the drill lined up with the door!
PoP
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Christ no. The long drills are used to drill through frames into floor spaces or up through plaster work. See my other post explaining.
On saying that though drilling through doors used to be a common task when switched locks were popular years ago. A switch in a chubb lock would be used to isolate an area such as a spirit store in a pub. Most engineers would fit the lock and bring the cable out onto the door and then clip or trunk it across the door to the hinge side. We used to drill all the way through and out through the opposite edge. Then a small hole into the door brought the cable into a door loop box and hey presto - a super neat job with no cables showing! The only give away being a small hole on the hinged edge which is easily filled and probably will never be seen anyway.
How did we keep the drill straight? With patience and by using a short drill until it ran out, then a longer, then an longer, etc.
The drills we used for this we had made. A simply 10mm drill extended with a bar and welded. You can't buy long wood drills whereas you can buy 1m long masonry drills.
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wrote:

Okay, thanks for that :)
I couldn't quite believe that you might have been taking the wiring thru the width of the door.
PoP
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On 17 Jan 2004, PJO wrote

So you're not willing to describe it, even in outline?
Just "trust me, I'm a pro and I know how to do this"?
No thanks.
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Cheers,
Harvey
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