A dose of realism, please

[Dave Plowman]

Don't think you have to be a member for virtual help.

[IMM]

I am Mr Popular. Everyone knows me on this ng.

[Andy Hall]

Oh I see. So when you say you "fitted" the boiler, did you mean in the same way as when Sir Christopher Wren "built" St. Paul's Cathedral?

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

No. I fitted the combi.

[Andy Hall]

But if you are not a CORGI member and did this professionally it would appear not to be legal.....

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

This was a friend, and I did not charge.

[PoP]

That may be the case, but the Inland Revenue can make assumptions about where income was derived from if they want to (taxi drivers tips, restaurant workers tips, and so on). So if your friends house burnt down why can't an assumption be made about whether it is a legit installation?

I've given up doing favours for friends - it's a business transaction every time where some particular skill might be called for. And that would be particularly the case with electric and similar was concerned because that way my professional indemnity insurance puts an umbrella around me if things go awry.

My advice would be not to rely upon a "friend" looking after your interests if their home goes pear-shaped.

PoP

[IMM]

They can assume all they like. I did it for free.

[PoP]

I think you miss the point. You may well have done the job for free. But there's no accounting for people in officialdom who might take a different view.

You did get a witnessed oath from your friend that this was done for free, right?

PoP

[IMM]

Can be arranged.

[Andy Hall]

You could still be in trouble.

This is another area where the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998 (sec.3 & 4) is unclear.

It talks about employers (individual or entity)/employees/self employed needing to be "members of the class of persons" (i.e. CORGI) before doing "work".

It does not make explicit whether money has to change hands on a specific occasion or whether some other form of business relationship might exist - e.g. a favour for a favour. I think that this was PoP's point.

Since you claim that you are involved in the supervision of CORGI fitters in your normal work, then you would presumably be aware of your duties under section 4 of the SI, where it clearly explains what you can and cannot do.

Because of this, you would have a hard time in court arguing that you didn't know. Also, because you claim that you are involved in the industry as a "professional", then there could be a "balance of probabilities" that you had done the work for your friend on a "professional basis" even if she didn't directly give you money.

If something happened to provoke scrutiny (e.g. house burned down or friend wanted to sell and there was a buyer's questionnaire), then if you were not involved in the industry at all, then the only argument would be about competence. However, since you claim that you are, then all of the issues relating to the professional aspects would come into consideration.

There is no substantial difference between your doing work on the side for cash (which would certainly be illegal, no question) and a one off for a friend, except that the first is habitual, and prevalent in the construction industry.

A lawyer for an insurer could quite easily make the case that:

- You were aware of the law since you were professionally involved in the industry

- You therefore knew that doing gas fitting professionally without CORGI membership is illegal

- You actually did the work

- You received some recompense for it.

The last point would not be unreasonable if you were professionally involved in the industry.

None of this is clear cut since English law relies on case and reasonableness. However, you would certainly be more exposed than someone who had no professional involvement in the industry.

Seems a risky proposition.......

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

No. They follow my design. No on-site supervision.

There is a big difference.

I am not doing gas fitting professionally, as no money changed hands.

Yes.

Well some coffee and sandwiches.

A great job though. Since I fitted it she has a had a service by a local CORGI and kept the receipt and report. So, any problems, of which there is none, now link back to him.

[Dave Plowman]

It is my understanding that - even if competent (;-)) - working on other than your *own* gas supply is against the law unless CORGI registered.

[Andy Hall]

The SI doesn't make that distinction...

That may not be how a lawyer would present it......

A business relationship does not have to involve money changing hands. It can be a kind for kind arrangement.

Probably wouldn't count.... :-)

I'm sure. I was simply making the point that a professional involvement in the industry, even if not in a given case can be viewed differently in law, as it is by the tax man, to a non-professional one.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[PoP]

Just to make it clear - doing work on the side for cash is not in itself illegal. Failing to declare it on your tax form would be. Moreover, in the event you took cash which wasn't properly declared and then found yourself on the wrong end of a court case then the Inland Revenue might have a sniff around and come to the conclusion that you regularly pocketed such sums of money and therefore your tax owed was £Xxxx. Even if £Xxxx was greater than the total sum you earned.

Plus it MIGHT contravene the terms of your employment contract. I remember from my days working in the IT industry that my terms included exclusions working for others. Serving pints behind a bar in the evening for some pocket money (properly declared of course ;)) may have been all right, but working for another IT company wouldn't have been.

Mind you, in this day and age the role of "employeR" has changed substantially. When I left school it was common to go into a job for life if you wanted to - nowadays it's bounce between jobs frequently. That's gonna hurt the pensions situation in the years ahead when all these people rely upon state benefits to get them thru.

PoP

[Andy Hall]

True. I was looking at it in the context of gas fitting, which if in done on the side for cash with no CORGI membership would be illegal, but for regulatory and not for tax reasons.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

No payment and competent -> above the law.

[Andy Hall]

Above the law? So you see yourself as the Leona Helmsley of gas fitting?

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[IMM]

[geoff]

In message , Dave Plowman writes

The words used by the person who answered my phone call stated that "you can work ON YOUR OWN boiler, but the law says you have to be competent"