BIOS/firmware change is something VPC claim to have done with ATi & NVidia...
Really, out of the big OEMs, I only really think of Dell for home systems. They just don't cater for my market and cost LOADS more when you start adding all my extra bits :(
Granted, I don't know a lot about the company, but the reviewers weren't small time mags & nerd pages, they should know what they're doing. Valid point about making a prototype that is cool, but reading between the lines, my guess is that they actually make quite good systems. Quite a few US hobbyist pages point to them too, which is always a good sign.
The problem is, someone like Dell, IBM, HP, etc. aren't going to spend the time you'd think configuring systems. They bang stuff together for high volume sales. Their main market is the sub-£1000 stuff, which is just a bunch of cheap bits bunged together. They *do* have good relationships with the "bits" companies, because they are spending so much money on them. It's all a bit mass-production. Fine china doesn't come from a 500,000 unit a day factory, it comes from small, loving businesses who care about what they sell. Same with cars ... except there's only about 3 car companies left in the world now!!!
I always find it interesting to see these differing perspectives.
Quite prepared to accept that...
and that...
also probably true...
Not sure about that - it does depend on the skill and experience of the "white box" builder though - so there is more of an element of lottery perhaps unless you know the small system builder by reputation.
Note also that some of the big OEMs can have quite frightening return rates on some kit - Dell and laptops for example.
In the sense of hardware optimisation etc you are right - I doubt even the big OEMs would want to routinely go in for BIOS rewrites etc. The areas where the smaller dealers will win are on service and attention to detail.
true - also as a home user looking for a top end system you are often wanting to specify things that the big OEMs give you no control over at all (like getting a case that makes good use of internal space - has enough free internal drive bays - with good filtered air flow over them etc).
This is the statement that give me the biggest difficulty! Yes the basic package of components used for the system will have been tested for compatibility, and the assembled unit you buy will have had some burn in testing - but that will be true for most small system builders as well.
Firmware updates etc are mostly produced by the components vendors - the big OEM may package them and make them easy to find on their web site - but that is normally the extent of the service.
It is in the backup and service issues where you can really win with the smaller players, plus attention to detail on the things that matter to the customer now and in the future (rather than things that cut production and support costs for the OEM):
If you phone a big OEM for tech support you get routed to a call centre staffed by a (relatively) non skilled person with a check list to follow. This is usually a painful experience that is often a waste of time, where you go over all the fault finding tests you have already done, and try to ignore the instruction to "just re-install windows from your recovery CD". Next time you phone you can't talk to the same person again. It may take many calls (and hours in telephone queues) just trying to get to talk to the "level 3" technical bod who you can actually communicate with on equal terms!
With the smaller dealer you may get to talk to the same person each time
- who remembers what you said in a phone call a couple of days ago and can carry on with the diagnosis where you left off - not with the next check list.
When you look at you nice new big OEM box it may work fine up until you want to upgrade it. You open its nice corporate friendly "tool free" chassis, ready to install a extra hard drive and find there are no spare mounting bays, or the "value added" design of the "sleek low profile case design with PCI riser" means the card if half an inch too tall!
A few years down the road you decide that the base computer is fine but it is time for a motherboard, CPU and RAM upgrade. Then you find the big OEM used a non standard motherboard layout, and the PSU connector is not the same.
Not knocking the big OEMs - much of their output is very well suited for their main target market (i.e. businesses), just highlighting that the things that can make a great supplier for business customers can also work against the discerning home customer.
Agreed that the *build quality* will depend on the experience of the builder but there is more probability of compatibility & reliability issues with these smaller white box builders.
Agreed! - Like everything in life, there will always be mistakes made or things overlooked. The better OEMs will learn from them and make sure they don't make the same mistakes again.
Most major OEMs will have the BIOS re-written when the motherboards are first introduced into their range, then slight modifications are made as new technology is introduced. Firmware on things such as optical drives, HDDs & modems are modified to increase reliability or speed depending on the application of the units.
Agreed, cases are one of the things that you will very rarely be able to specify from major OEMs. This is due to the corp identity mainly although alot of R&D work is carried out on the case design prior to production.
This is true for the smaller players, the big OEMs have access to more source code than you may imagine! Some employ teams of engineers in-house others have contracts with external sources to modify/optimise as necessary!
Agreed, the difference is that a CC has the backup of the manufacturers, developers, R&D labs etc whereas the smaller dealer has access to a much lower level 'dealer line' at the manufacturers or the same access as the public to their web sites.
Due to the 'mass production' aspect of the major OEMs, many problems will have already been resolved before you actually notice they exist!
Most CCs will use some form of call logging software to track previous calls from customers. Although not as good as speaking to the same person again, should help them in continuing the diagnostics process.
As nearly all CCs actually cost the OEM/retailer to run (premium rate lines nowhere near cover the cost of running a large CC!), it is in their interest to *resolve your problem* in the shortest, most efficent way possible.
The problems usually arrise when the staff don't have the same commitment to their customers as the management does!
I have not seen any major OEMs ship products with riser cards in for years, the cost of R&D, production and warranty is too much to warrant them!
They are usually only used now in specialised hardware or where a specific design requirement exists.
Again, see above!
As businesses are very slow to upgrade their hardware, they also need to cater for the home market! - A good percentage of most major OEMs volume will be to the home user.
For a low cost PC, built to an exact specification, your local PC builder is proberbly the best option if you have little experience. Personally I would source the components online and D-I-Y it myself :-) (had to get a reference to D-I-Y in somewhere! :-)
I don't know enough about them to say if they are good or bad, all I can say is they won't have done the same amount of testing as the major OEMs, they simply couldn't afford it.
See my other post! - It is in their interest to configure and test their units to avoid costly returns and after sales support costs. "Bang[ing] stuff" together is more akin to the < 10k pa suppliers IME.
Before a new PC range is released, a major OEM will have used several teams of people to test the product for several months! - Thats alot of man hours! (Remember they also have access to new techology long before it hits the shelves)
Not seen much evidence of that - oddly it is often systems from the middle tier vendors that seem to cause our cutomers most grief.
Oddly some don't seem to bother with some product range... perhaps they have worked out the economics and decided that it is actually cheaper to ship out replacements to 30% of their customers for a certain product in their range.
Hmm - next time you talk to a big OEM tell them you want a DVD drive without RPC2 region restrictions.... ;-)
(Something small dealers will be able to deliver without too much difficulty)
Often that R&D is focussed on reduced cost of ownership though - not expandabilty.
Most corporate buyers using the channel, have acces to slightly better info than Joe Public. More importantly though they often have more incentive you use it to resolve your problem. Many OEMs just dont have the customer commitment for non business users (or at lest finding the one in five members of staff who do is the trickey bit)
Yup doing support is expensive - shame that the biggest of them are so hopeless at achieving that goal then ;-)
Very true...
(Must admit if I were working in a call centre with Joe Public on the phone all day with daft problems mostly of their own creation, I most likely would loose the ability to be civil within the space of a morning! - not a job I envy at all!)
You can probably still get Optiplex systems from Dell that still use them. Also any rack mount stuff under 3U will have them (not that many home users will buy rack mount!)
Saw a new HP (low end system) the other day with a bespoke PSU (standard connector for once - but an odd case size). Seen plenty of newish Dells with non standard motherboard mounting locations etc. So they are still about.
Alot are now realising that - it is taking them time to adjust to the differing needs. They also tend to have different CCs for home and business users - the home ones are oftne not a patch on the business ones.
For a low cost system I would say that any supplier is probably OK - the big OEMs will be fine as well.
IMHO If you want a special system and Don't have the skills to build it yourself then go to a specialist.
Well obviously - same here - but then again I design microsystems and software etc for a living so the prospect of buying an "off the shelf" system is almost an affront to my dignity ;-)
Yeah, but I'm getting out of their core market - they're not going to spend much time on the systems that only 2% of their customers spec. The high-end guys only sell these systems. At that level there are also very different issues than at the low end. Low end is tried and trusted cheap technology that's been around for a while. The manufacturers of high end kit won't be shifting that much to the big OEM's. The smaller, specialist guys are
*only* buying the really fast cutting edge stuff though and may well shift just as many units. Plus their guys tend to be a lot more "genuine" PC builders. I've worked with a lot of big tech companies - the bigger they get, the more money seeking "tech cattle" they attract!!
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I've found the same to be the case. We're a Compaq/HP shop and a lot of their new kit seems to have really obvious problems - especially laptops (and while I'm whinging about them - why the hell can't Compaq make a battery that lasts more than 1 hour and doesn't pack it in after a year!?).
Exactly - smaller firms make it their business to impress and look after their user base. Particularly if this user base might be coming back to buy another very expensive system from them in a couple of years! Big OEM's couldn't give a damn if they lost a small amount of customers.
Yep - all the importance is placed on the corporate business. All the call centres make their staff learn the ropes on Joe Public first, then be "promoted" to corp. support.
I did it a long long time ago and it damn nearly killed me!! The experience even today makes me never want to spend much time on the phone to anyone!
I can put together a system myself no problem. Just don't have the experience knowing what works well together and what will land nicely in a case to make a good neat design!
Google groups is your friend here - shortlist your components then search for the issues people are having with them.
Much of the extra performance will come from a bit of planning in the setup. For example making sure that the windows swap file is on a different physical drive to the rest of the OS. Partitioning large drives to keep management of data simpler and also keeping the size of partitions under the size of the backup medium available etc.
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