50 HP blackstone air starting

[George]

I have had a Blackstone 50 HP diesel for many years now and I have provided the air start by charging two old refrigeration cylinder to about 300 PSI and this is rapidly discharged into the engine via its changed valve timing system which motors the engine round until it reaches about 50 rpm at whic h time I turn on the fuel and change it over to the running configuration, it usually starts with little trouble. It has one flywheel and one cylinder and will run all day on a gallon of diesel.

The two cylinders are rated about 500 PSI and are in series containing abou t 6 cubic feet each. I have not had any problems and the cylinders can be c harged by the compression of the engine for re-starting. The pressurised pa rt holds pressure very well and I have been asked to demonstrate the engine running at a local rally. The air just gets the huge flywheel up to speed which gets it over one compression.

This of course has raised the question of health and safety. Someone has t old me I must get the pressure vessels certified and I am not able to run i t in public unless I have new cylinders and pipes etc. etc.

This is a great shame, as I doubt if I shall be able to afford it all or ev en get it done in time. As this engine was imported back from the desert, by me in the seventies and after this experience I doubt if any others woul d have done this, it may be that it is one of very few in UK. I was told b y Blackstone that nearly all the production of this engine went abroad and I have never even seen another.

Does anyone know of any solution to this problem, as I have never been able to start it using any other method. The story of this engine is told on my website.

in the old engines section.

300 psi does not sound like a lot of pressure and I do have a few old oxyge n cylinder which are rated at 20 times this pressure. does anyone know if i t would be OK to use two of these instead?

Any comments would be welcome, Thanks George Bell.

[Nightjar]

That is almost certainly covered by The Pressure Systems Safety Regulations 2000. Provided you keep the pressure below 20 bar (300psi) and the energy in the largest vessel is less than 2x10^5 bar litres (I make this 3,400 bar litres per cylinder) then it is classed as a minor system. That means what you need is a competent person (which can be you), a written system of examination and an examination in accordance with the written system of examination.

Full details of the legislation and the HSE approved code of practice can be found here:

To satisfy the event public liability insurers, for use in a public place you ought to employ an independent outside expert to carry out the examination and they can usually prepare the written system of examination as well. Whether anything needs to be replaced will depend upon the outcome of the examination. There are quite a few companies offering examination services for compressed air systems and this is simply one I found using Google:

Colin Bignell

[harryagain]

The two cylinders are rated about 500 PSI and are in series containing about

6 cubic feet each. I have not had any problems and the cylinders can be charged by the compression of the engine for re-starting. The pressurised part holds pressure very well and I have been asked to demonstrate the engine running at a local rally. The air just gets the huge flywheel up to speed which gets it over one compression.

This of course has raised the question of health and safety. Someone has told me I must get the pressure vessels certified and I am not able to run it in public unless I have new cylinders and pipes etc. etc.

This is a great shame, as I doubt if I shall be able to afford it all or even get it done in time. As this engine was imported back from the desert, by me in the seventies and after this experience I doubt if any others would have done this, it may be that it is one of very few in UK. I was told by Blackstone that nearly all the production of this engine went abroad and I have never even seen another.

Does anyone know of any solution to this problem, as I have never been able to start it using any other method. The story of this engine is told on my website.

in the old engines section.

300 psi does not sound like a lot of pressure and I do have a few old oxygen cylinder which are rated at 20 times this pressure. does anyone know if it would be OK to use two of these instead?

Any comments would be welcome, Thanks George Bell.

300psi is plenty of pressure to cause a very serious accident if the pressure vessel were to burst. They corrode from the inside out through water accumulations, especially if not drained down regularly. (There is usually a drain valve which should be opened regularly.) If it hasn't been looked at in fifty years, it should be checked out anyway.

If there are any problems it's likely cheapest to buy a modern electric compressor set and accumulator and use that instead to start up.

[Andrew Mawson]

Could you crank it up using a commercial compressed nitrogen cylinder which would thus be certified? I appreciate that you will be filling with a semi inert gas, but once the flywheel is spinning at you 50 rpm there should be enough inertia to sweep it out and draw atmospheric air into the system.

Andrew

[Tim+]

What a marvellous "toy"! Very envious. ;-)

I think the obvious answer is to ask someone who knows for sure rather than relying on hearsay. I can see why your cylinders should be certified and would imagine that any reputable testing centre could advise you on whether your present cylinders are okay (or suggest suitable cheap replacements).

As a short term solution, could you just start the engine before the public arrives and recharge the cylinders after they leave?

Tim

[tony sayer]

Pix please somewhere:)...

Well there is,

uk.rec.engines.stationary

But theres very few posts there these days, seems that web based forums are more active..

[Dave Liquorice]

At idle not fully loaded I take it. 50 HP is about 38 kW, diesel has around 10 kW per litre or 45 kW/gallon. An 8 hour day fully loaded would need nearly 7 gallons before you look at effciency, maybe 50% so make that 14 gallons... B-)

Colin has posted links to the real legislation and good other information about getting an independant inspection/certifcation. The only thing I'd add would be a nervousness about transporting the cylinders charged. They would need suitable protection in case of accident, no doubt the legislation/regulation covers that though.

[Nightjar]

On 20/02/2014 13:41, Dave Liquorice wrote: ...

The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2009 might apply but (a) I don't know those regulations and (b) SFAIK, the EU Directive was not retrospective and if the cylinders came over with the engine, they pre-date the legislation.

Colin Bignell

[George]

ed the air start by charging two old refrigeration cylinder to about 300 PS I and this is rapidly discharged into the engine via its changed valve timi ng system which motors the engine round until it reaches about 50 rpm at wh ich time I turn on the fuel and change it over to the running configuration , it usually starts with little trouble. It has one flywheel and one cylind er and will run all day on a gallon of diesel.

out 6 cubic feet each. I have not had any problems and the cylinders can be charged by the compression of the engine for re-starting. The pressurised part holds pressure very well and I have been asked to demonstrate the engi ne running at a local rally. The air just gets the huge flywheel up to spee d which gets it over one compression.

told me I must get the pressure vessels certified and I am not able to run it in public unless I have new cylinders and pipes etc. etc.

even get it done in time. As this engine was imported back from the desert , by me in the seventies and after this experience I doubt if any others wo uld have done this, it may be that it is one of very few in UK. I was told by Blackstone that nearly all the production of this engine went abroad an d I have never even seen another.

le to start it using any other method. The story of this engine is told on my website.

in the old engines section.

gen cylinder which are rated at 20 times this pressure. does anyone know if it would be OK to use two of these instead?

Thanks very much for all the useful information. I do have a number of ve ry nice Bedford Lorry compressors, If I used 3 or 4 of them driven by a 20 HP diesel say, I might even have enough delivery without a big storage tank to drive the Blackstone fast enough for it to start. I like the Nitrogen tank idea too, How much would one cost for a short hire, does anyone know? As soon as the engine reaches starting revs, and I switch the fuel on it t akes a big gulp of air during the next revolution so I think this will work .

Most compressor tanks do not go up to 300 PSI as far as I have seen. what I need is one of those tanks with an inspection hole bolted on to the side u sed for sand blasting machines. I am sure they are rated a lot higher than 300 PSI and the delivery of the air would be fast enough too. Plus inspect ion would be easy. Anyone near Norfolk know where there is one going cheap.

I did put a link in my first post, but here is one that is more visible and which goes to the actual section concerned. The Blackstone Saga is down a t the end of lots of other stories, so you will have to scroll down to find it. there are 2 or 3 photos.

Regards

[Tim+]

I think cylinder internal inspection is usually done with a boroscope so I don't think that you need to restrict yourself to ones with removable inspection ports.

Tim

[Harry Bloomfield]

George presented the following explanation :

Could you not adapt it to an electric starter motor, then just use a large battery?

I suspect a starter motor would need to be geared down, to decrease the speed and increase the torque though. Some sort of rubber wheel to engage with the fly wheel perhaps?

[Andrew Mawson]

Most sand blasting is done at 90-100 psi so too low for you I'm afraid :( There are 'air intensifiers' which use lower pressure air to reciprocate a piston that gives a higher pressure output. It would be a slow process tough as they tend to be low volume devices - I have a little one somewhere.

Andrew

[Nightjar]

My air receivers were inspected by unscrewing a plug, about 50mm in diameter, in one end and the inspector shining a torch in to look.

Colin Bignell

[Zapp Brannigan]

Thanks - some fascinating stories there. Keep up the good work!

[SteveW]

It may be worth trying at your nearest model engineering society. I know that my local society can inspect, test and certify the boilers on 5" gauge locos that visit their tracks. They will probably be interested in helping you out if they can.

SteveW

[George]

ed the air start by charging two old refrigeration cylinder to about 300 PS I and this is rapidly discharged into the engine via its changed valve timi ng system which motors the engine round until it reaches about 50 rpm at wh ich time I turn on the fuel and change it over to the running configuration , it usually starts with little trouble. It has one flywheel and one cylind er and will run all day on a gallon of diesel.

out 6 cubic feet each. I have not had any problems and the cylinders can be charged by the compression of the engine for re-starting. The pressurised part holds pressure very well and I have been asked to demonstrate the engi ne running at a local rally. The air just gets the huge flywheel up to spee d which gets it over one compression.

told me I must get the pressure vessels certified and I am not able to run it in public unless I have new cylinders and pipes etc. etc.

even get it done in time. As this engine was imported back from the desert , by me in the seventies and after this experience I doubt if any others wo uld have done this, it may be that it is one of very few in UK. I was told by Blackstone that nearly all the production of this engine went abroad an d I have never even seen another.

le to start it using any other method. The story of this engine is told on my website.

in the old engines section.

gen cylinder which are rated at 20 times this pressure. does anyone know if it would be OK to use two of these instead?

As a matter of interest I did finally start a 30 Hp Asaa horizontal diesel by bolting a 3Hp single phase electric motor to the workshop floor and with a 3 sheaf 3" pulley on the end of the shaft and 3 belts going round the fl ywheel I did manage to get it up to a speed that allowed it to start. I ha d to use a handle to get it moving and the belt was sprayed with belt dress ing liquid and squealed like a pig before it got moving, but this Blackston e is about twice the weight and It will need a lot more power to get that u p to speed. Having said that they do both have exhaust lifters. Would a 1

2v starter connected to say 24 volts develop 5 HP ? It might work. I have also heard that wind-up starters are more effective than one might think. My local club has a chap who may be able to advise on the regulations, too, I have found out.

The HSE PDF has a lot of good stuff.

Thanks for the kind words, Zapp.

[tony sayer]

In article , Zapp Brannigan scribeth thus

[meow2222]

ed the air start by charging two old refrigeration cylinder to about 300 PS I and this is rapidly discharged into the engine via its changed valve timi ng system which motors the engine round until it reaches about 50 rpm at wh ich time I turn on the fuel and change it over to the running configuration , it usually starts with little trouble. It has one flywheel and one cylind er and will run all day on a gallon of diesel.

out 6 cubic feet each. I have not had any problems and the cylinders can be charged by the compression of the engine for re-starting. The pressurised part holds pressure very well and I have been asked to demonstrate the engi ne running at a local rally. The air just gets the huge flywheel up to spee d which gets it over one compression.

told me I must get the pressure vessels certified and I am not able to run it in public unless I have new cylinders and pipes etc. etc.

even get it done in time. As this engine was imported back from the desert , by me in the seventies and after this experience I doubt if any others wo uld have done this, it may be that it is one of very few in UK. I was told by Blackstone that nearly all the production of this engine went abroad an d I have never even seen another.

le to start it using any other method. The story of this engine is told on my website.

in the old engines section.

gen cylinder which are rated at 20 times this pressure. does anyone know if it would be OK to use two of these instead?

I dont know if it'd be workable to start it offsite, perhaps out in the roa d, then drive it into the field running, with pressure cylinders empty. If you could make that fly you wouldnt need anything.

NT

[Dave Liquorice]

Where is the fun in that? For showing of an engine like this a lot of the the interest is in the starting procedure and what is associated with that. Once running there isn't much to see unless there are lots of open rockers/pushrods/couplings etc

Last air start diesel I saw started was one of the ones for the gen sets at Droitwhich. I might be wrong but I think they where just hand turned slowly to the right place in the cycle and then just kicked over with a blast of air, if it didn't fire you started again. They weren't spun up and the fuel/compression dropped in but these where 6 cylinder (I think) jobbies standing 12' from sump to rocker covers and 750 HP each...

Pretty good memory, the visit I made to Droitwhich was in 1978...

[Tim+]

Absolutely, which is why the Internal Fire museum is so fabulous. A "must see" for anyone remotely interested in old engines. Well worth the trip to west Wales.

Tim