I can't claim vast experience of pipecutters, but the ones I've used always narrow the pipe somewhat at the point of the cut. To insert a pipebending spring in these circumstances, I simply run a small blade ( on my penknife ) around the inside of the pipe at the cut and scrape off the indented metal. It works fine and probably cuts down turbulence as well.
Andy.
Well, after all the help and information I've picked up from you lot, just thought I'd let you know how I got on with my first attempt at plumbing...which was to fit a TRV to a radiator...
I'd been playing around with end feed and solder ring joints for a couple of weeks - with mixed results. Bought all the tools I thought I'd need, and away I went.
Got 8mm microbore CH system, using two zone (up and down) with a manifold on each.
Drained the system down (took half an hour - is that normal - mind you, I was yoo lazy to undo any bleed valves to assist the water's escape!).
Took up the floor boards in the dining room - what a pig of a job - ended up splitting some - so need to buy some new ones...
Found the pipework to the radiator. My whole system has rads with what I believe are called 'yorkshire' valves - both feed and return go in at the same end. I really wanted to fit a TRV to the rad in the dining room as we rarely used it and it is always hot.
Unscrewed each pipe from the valve - and let the last of the water in the rad drain out (most over me as it is very close to the wall and I hadn't realised until it was too late - couldn't get the bowl anywhere near.)
Then went to the other side to unscrew the plug - and even though I have about 100 allen keys, did I have a 9mm one - not a chance. Sent the other half out to get me one - while I sit there worrying about how cold the house will be tonight when it all goes pearshaped!
Only now do I really discover how 's**te' my new pipecutter is. Bought it off ebay - and it is just like the one Homebase sells - will do 5mm to 22mm - but it just funnels the pipe - and will easily bend it. I now realised it would be too risky to try solder with less than perfect joints, so out I went to buy some 8mm compression joints.
Got back, undid the plug from the rad - got covered in black gunge (as did the wall which had been freshly decorated - she is now in a black mood!!). Tried to clean out the thread as best I could - before screwing in the TRV (with that white tape stuff on!). Didn't seem to go in too far before the thread started to creak - so I thought that must be in.
Back to the other side - fitted the lockshield- which went in MUCH easier - and tightened up nicely.
Now I cut my lenghts of new pipe - which I planned to take behind the rad - and peek out at the other end near the new TRV. Not that easy - very little room behind it - and as time was getting on, I decided to take it under the rad. Not the look I wanted, and the sharp bend up to the TRV was tricky (my crap pipecutter left such a mess at the end of the pipe that I couldn't get the bending spring in!!).
Now joined my two new peices of pipe to the original pipe under the floorboards with compression joints - which was easy - but I didn't know how tight to go - so took a guess!
Joing the 8mm pipe to the two new radiator valves was hard - difficult to tighten up the nuts to compress the olives (again, not sure how tight these shoudl be).
That took 3 hours!
Back now to the loft - let the ball c*ck start to refill the system - and went round all the rads in turn letting out air.
Left it half an hour before firing up the boiler - and boy did the water gurgle in there! Turned up the room stat downstairs and waited. Couldn't see any leaks - and after an hour now, I've noticed a tiny bit of water at the bottom of the rad - near the valve that 'creaked' as I put it in.
So, what do you think? What did I do wrong? How do I fix that little leak... was it because the thread was dirty....?
I know I need to throw the crap pipe cutter and buy a good one (any recommendations for an 8mm cutter?).
The whole job took 5 hours (don't laugh!)
Just got to buy some new floorboards to replace the ones I broke - and repaint the smudged wall - to keep her happy!
Sorry to bore you all...... but without the help on the NG, I'd have not ever attempted this. Now I know the pitfalls, and once I've bought a new cutter, the rest of the room will get new TRVs - ready for the new boiler when I get round to buying one.
Thanks all for your help and time!
Regards, Simon.
...
That's always a risk :-(
...
I'm not laughing, I'm impressed that you didn't give up before then.
Of course. She'll make it worth your while :-)
It's not boring, I can't help with your questions but posts like these make others feel that they're perhaps not so uniquely bad :-)
Mary
Always do it at the end before working on the system to be sure that as much remaining water as possible is drained.
You forgot the cat litter trays (two of them -now you know why :-) ) plus liberal plastic, newspapers etc.
This means that the system needs a thorough cleaning, so you might want to look at a procedure that I posted several times in the past involving taking the radiators outside to be hosed through. If there's gunge in an 8mm system it could restrict the flow to unacceptable level. Please do read the notes about how to take the radiator out without dropping indellible dye everywhere.
Bending springs are largely a waste of time. On microbore they go on the outside, but it is far better in any case to get a bender for microbore. It's a hand tool costing under £15.
With soft pipe like this, it's generally easier to get a seal than on
15mm or above whigh are harder copper.
It could be, or it could be a faulty tail on the TRV. I've had one before now. Generally, if there is a creak, it's a thread that is interfering badly because there's gunk, a faulty thread or even a wrong thread type. It really needs to be disaasembled and the reason investigated. Then try doing up the fitting without tape first. It should do up easily. Then you need about 5-6 turns of tape, wound the correct way (clockwise with tail end pointing towards you) before final assembly..
Yes. I have two different ones made by Rothenberger. A Minicut I Pro (catalague 7.0401) which is a 3-16mm cutter, and a Minicut (catalogue 7.0105).
They are all typical first time issues which everybody experiences. Next time will be much easier.
So.... shopping list:
- Flowers for SWMBO (but tomorrow to avoid having them wrapped around your head ;-) )
- Two cat litter trays from supermarket.
- Small sandwich bags from supermarket to use as condoms over the radiator tails to avoid drips.
- Rubber bands to fit above
- Plastic sheet, newspaper, old towels etc.
- Microbore pipe bender. BES 7631 or similar.
- Tubing cutter as above.
- Possibly another radiator valve to check thread.
- Beer as reward for successful completion of job
And NOT from the local filling station ...
Without cats.
I'm sure no-one here knows what you mean ...
Real condoms come with them built in. Or used to ... oops!
All good technical stuff.
Simon Hawthorne wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Soldering is better, really; you haven't anywhere mentioend having a heat proof mat. You can solder easily and safely near surfaces with one of these- it needs a lot less room than fitting a compression joint, which are not nice things to bury in the structure anyway.
Not the look I wanted, and the sharp bend up
I think you'd br better off to use elbow fittings; you can prefabricate on a bench, and cut the ends to length on installation.
Not too tight, just a grunt or two over fingertight; try to get them nice and clean and lubricated so you can clearly feel when the olive starts to compress. It shouldn't be mush tighter than watertight.
You've faced the fear, I won't say the rest is easy (blisters, scars, "mildly" acid flux in open wounds, much cussing) but you end up with an installation you can trust, and there's nearly as many cowboy plumbers a saerial riggers.
Good luck - and I forgot, don't go cheapo on the tools, specially the basic ones
mike
Ok, good plan. Would have stopped those sudden 'trickles' that kept cathcing me out!
Yup - will have the litter tray ready next weekend when I 'complete the job'!
I plan to do that also Andy - I really wanted to do it today but time was pressing - was going out at 8 - and just wanted to get the system working again. I can clean the threads properly that way - and hopefully stop the leaks I have on both sides now!
I did only put two turns of the tape on the threads - and paid no attention to the direction - which would also explain why most of it has been squashed up - and is no longer on the actual thread!
Ahhh.... I bought an 8mm spring - and it is far to small to go on the outside... but I'll certainly look for a hand tool. I also plan to use an elbow joint 'beneath' the floorboards to tidy up the job.
Just checked them - all are dry as a bone.....
I'll check that when I clean it - using the right amount of tape this time.... (thanks!)
WIll take a look at these...
Nice one.... thanks for the tips (again).
Regards
S.
Cheers Mike - I have got a heat mat - but there was so much water around (the pipes under the floor were at a lower point than the darin tap) - I went for compression...
Luckily - there is about 24" between the floor and the rubble beneath so room isn't a problem.
I need more practice with solder ring before I'll risk it on 'real' pipe!
Thanks
Si
You'll find that if you get a system organised for doing the work, you can do this remarkably quickly.
Usually radiator valve tails are a bit on the loose side so a few more turns are useful. Don't do too many, or the tape again bunches up.
In terms of the direction, another way to look at it is when you've would on the tape, is the outer open end facing the direction that you'll turn the fitting? If it is, then you got it wrong.
It *could* be that there are 8mm springs hat go internally, but I've only ever seen external ones.
It's better to make a bend with the tool and connect with a straight coupler under the floor if you have the space because it disturbs the flow less. If you go for a bend, make it a slow bend rather than elbow if you can.
Good. I've never had a problem with them
The fitting should do up smoothly and with sufficient resistance that you can't really turn it with your fingers after the first few turns.
There are probably others, but these worked and you can buy spare wheels.
In message , Andy Hall writes
Foil dishes are useful here, as you can form them into a suitable shape to fit under the valave and then direct water into a larger container
Simon Hawthorne wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Whoops, I forgot the water issue - if you can't get the pipe dry and the nearest water well away, don't attempt to solder.
It's easier than you think - try some endfeed (not solder ring) fittings, they're much cheaper, neater and IMO easier.
(By the way, I'm deeply ignorant of microbore, so they may not exist)
I find it's easier to overheat solder rings while waiting for them to show signs of action.
Get all ends absolutely clean with wire wool, also the inside of the fitting -perhaps Andy can explain how that's done, with standard pipe you can use your finger - assemble, heat and keep applying solder till it runs and fills the joint. Don't overheat and oxidise the copper!
If soldering in situ as well as keeping well away from water, make sure the ends are open, ie if there's a tap or valve open it; expanding trapped hot air as well as steam can blow your joint.
Sorry about banging on, but IMO soldered joints are so preferable to compression I always look to use them, I only use compression for final assembly to fixed points like tanks, boilers, as it's nice to have a few joints you can easily break, but by the same reasoning they would be easily accessible.
Good luck
mike
No problem, thanks Mike. A friend of mine came round today and looked at some of the joints I'd made (practising on some pipe I bought) - he reckons I'd overheated it which is why it didn't work very well. I just need more practice before I rely on it - but I'm sure that will come.
Thanks for your help and advice...
S.
Yes, certainly with 8mm you need relatively little heat compared with (say) making a 22 x 22 x 22 tee joint.
Making sure that everything is clean is important - i.e. steel wool on the pipe and in the fitting, then flux and assemble.
Don't turn the torch up too high but get the fitting into the hottest part of the flame - a little way out from the tip of the inner blue cone. Then the important part is to work quickly before the effect of the flux goes and too much oxidation happens. As soon as you see the solder, remove the flame - don't hang around. Then be careful not to disturb the joint - there is enough residual heat to keep the solder molten for a number of seconds. What you don't want to happen is for there to be movement just as it's solidifying - that results in a dry joint which will probably leak.
Generallly if you use solder ring 8mm fittings there is plenty of solder in the ring in relation to the need for the joint. End feed can give you more control. Assuming that you have heated the joint evenly then when you can tough solder onto the mouth of the fitting and it melts and flows easily, then you are in business. Touch it on and remove the flame immediately.
Wet+dry vac connected to end of pipe, and suck it out. Drained in moments.
And don't buy the budget Screwfix mat either. I threw one in on an order thinking it may come in handy as my current one has seen better days. It's totally useless - for soldering irons maybe, certainly not for flames.
It depends how much you need to get out for this type of job I would guess as much as possible is the answer.
I use cheap paint roller trays - much the same idea.
Yes that would be about the right way to go about getting a leaking joint.
As AH said about 5 or 6 turns would be OK. More won't hurt unless it stops you getting the thread started in the hole.
An INTERNAL microbore bending spring - that must be very small indeed. (I wasn't even aware they were made.)
Others have mentioned the need to clean up the bore of a pipe however you've cut it before you can get a bending spring in (and I've never seen an internal 8mm spring either), but I wonder if you might have tried to cut the pipe with too few revolutions of the cutter - assuming it's the type with a screw to turn to increase the depth of cut. Try more turns with only a small increment of cut per turn, particularly with soft microbore pipe.
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