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The message from Roger contains these words:

Just another afterthought.

Of course I know the A49 isn't actually in Wales. That I would use it in preference to the A483 when heading for South Wales should say something about the alternatives.

I would think you may be experienced after about a million miles. You could take advanced training on skid pans, etc. to reduce this a bit.

You can spot experienced drivers.. they don't bother overtaking normal traffic on single carriageway roads when its busy.. you can only overtake a few cars before the next junction/island where you join the queue a mere 10 cars ahead. This is about a minute or less.

So if you travel 20 miles on a single carriageway that's busy you only save a couple of minutes at best. I prefer to relax.. I can always make up the difference by driving at 70mph instead of 69mph later.

I suppose that's a major difference experience brings.. knowing that it makes no difference in the end other than the stress levels experienced.

The message from "dennis@home" contains these words:

Since I am not in a hurry saving time is not an issue. If the road is really busy there are no overtaking opportunities to be had but if there are I get the pleasure of driving at least part of my journey with a clear road ahead of me and no idiot trying to drive up my exhaust pipe behind me.

Bumbling along in a convoy with not a care in the world other than trying to prevent anyone overtaking. Time to admire the view, converse with you passengers and be completely unprepared for any emergency.

Ah cruise control and a gps with digital readout. Without the gps you would be lucky to get within 5 mph of your target speed and without cruise control would find it impossible to stick to it. I find cruise control impossible to live with in traffic on dual carriageways and never use it on single carriageways. It is however an invaluable aid when driving along an empty road where 100mph would not be an unreasonable speed.

Are you sure you are not really displaying your lack of experience (whatever that is) here. I find driving at my chosen speed less stressful than the close proximity that goes with convoy driving.

Or speed cameras could be reprogrammed to nab any car that passes them less than 1/1.5 seconds after the previous one. To quote a once famous policeman this might be "a major contribution to road safety".

OTOH an experienced driver stuck behind something on a long road with no dualled section, will get past as quickly as possible.

I agree with everything you say.

Adhering rigidly to speed limits is harder, and more stressful than driving at a range of speeds that smoothly adapt to road conditions.

In general road conditions, are more predictable than other drivers.

Whilst I have had my share of heart stopping moments from misjudging road conditions, the truly heart stopping ones that were 'inches from death' have all been due to other drivers doing something so appallingly unexpected and stupid - typically pulling STRAIGHT out in front of you - at WELL under the speed limit ;-) ..yup. I have even done it myself..no one is totally perfect. you eventually learn that there is always some freak combination of factors that will convince someone that a road is clear when it isn't. In my case it was a totally fluky combination of someone approaching at JUST the right speed and my looking at the road at JUST the right intervals so the oncoming car was always hidden behind one or more obstacles at the time I looked. THAT taught me that no road is ever clear just because you looked..five times. Look again.

Or the time I manged to push a mini across the Finchley road. THAT taught me that just because you check your rear view mirrors, and your wing mirrors, doesn't mean that there isn't a small car RIGHT ALONGSIDE YOUR VAN *UNDER* the wing mirror..now ALL my wing mirrors are set so I can see my vehicle side and rear wheel at least..

Experience is not blaming someone else for YOUR mistakes by comforting yourself that it 'wasn't your fault' - its being humbled time and again and LEARNING to do it different..LERANING to AVOID hot rod teenagers, old pensioners with hats pulled down to their ears..or drivers who do not maintain a steady straight line, but wander from side to side..understanding that someone whose right foot moves between the two right pedals constantly is a driver that doesn't really have the knowledge of how to anticipate, and is a hazard on wheels..that a mother who is turning to scream at her kids who are throwing confetti inside that car is not aware of you at all..or anyone else..that someone doing

50mph in the fast lane of a deserted dual carriageway, and who seems not to have noticed you behind for the last 5 miles, is probably best undertaken very quickly...that te car you are following whose left rear wheel appears to be suffering from Parkinsons, has a shot shock absorber, and is likely to lose the rear of the car on a corner..that if someone is 4 feet from your tailpipe, you had better make sure that you have treble the distance you normally leave in front..just in case.. Even that the reason your car steering has suddenly gone stiff means the kingpin is seized..and if you fail to heed, its going to snap on you..

It took me about 5 years to be able to cope with roads..and my vehicle..its still educational after 37 years of driving to understand yet an new twist on the 'what IS that idiot DOING' game.

Nope. Other drivers are the major hazards. Not speed, not road conditions. THOSE are predictable by and large..tho it still upsets my passengers when I do emergency stops on straight clear bits of road to see how much ice may or may not be underfoot.

Now something like that sounds like a good idea (something that used to be dealt with by 'Policemen' (I think they were called) eh)? ;-)

Would my trailer get done for 'tailgaiting' though? ;-(

FWIW I think the thing with all of this is that our driving habits just reflect the habits of the population in general. We know once many folk get into a car their personalities can change, passive folk becoming aggressive (eg road rage), intelligent becoming stupid (eg considerate parking / positioning) etc.

My main 'gripe' [1] is what seems to be a generally poor level of 'awareness' amongst drivers, awareness of the consequences of their actions (be that driving to fast or too slow) or blocking traffic flow through a busy roundabout through fear or loosing one cars length and hence letting 30 cars on their way across them and onto their journey or home (heaven forbid), or the width of their vehicle re gaps etc?

I'm not a 'fast' rider / driver (not even in my yoof) but I did and still 'like to get on with it'. The only (rare) exception being if sometimes when traveling on holiday, am not on any timescale's and am not inconveniencing anyone who like me when not on holiday, also 'wants to get on with it' then I'm more happy / willing to 'potter' (to me that's often still around the nominal marked speed limit) ;-)

I have rarely driven just for the fun of it (I may have ridden for such reasons but even then not much) so am generally out there because I have to be and want to get the job done and home, safe-n-sound but asap.

When towing (and especially when in a vehicle that isn't 'powerful') I'm always very aware of what's behind me and make every effort to allow faster traffic through asap. Yes I have the right to travel at whatever speed I choose but this is the real world and I'm not alone in it.

All the best and a safe 2007 ..

T i m

[1] some other 'gripes' being ..

Folk who slow down (a lot) for a bend (even though you have good observation that it is clear). Like they don't trust their tyres or think they are going to skid etc? They then (as mentioned elsewhere on this thread), speed up on the straight bits restricting you chances of overtaking safely). These drivers are typically 'old'.

Those that approach an exit from (say) a garden center, stop, watch you approaching (for *ages*) THEN pull out in front / across you ..? If they pull out in front of you then often rarely 'get on with it' and trundle along at 27 mph irrespective of the actual speed limits (presumably they assume it's all 30 mph). These drivers are typically 'old'.

Those who make their decisions where they are going to park in said garden center whilst the car is stationary and still 50% in the main road (these drivers are typically old).

Those folk who slow to a halt (not just back off a bit) over those traffic calming 'square / humps' (the ones you can clear with an average sized car without even feeling them. These drivers are typically old or 'youfs' in lowered cars ).

Folk who don't take opportunities when handed to them on a plate .. like when turning right at a cross junction and the oncoming traffic is being held back behind a milk float etc (these drivers are often old, learners or don't know that is a 'known junction / situation' where one has to 'get on with it' or you will be there all day).

Folk who have to be able to see a road is clear to the horizon before they will pull out onto it (these drivers are typically old).

Folk who stop at every roundabout with perfect visibility even though there is no other traffic to be seen anywhere! (these drivers are often old or drunk).

Or the middle aged woman (as it happens) who was trundling around the top section of the M25 on New years morning (01:30, road unusually empty, dryish but a bit windy) doing 55 mph in lane 2. Lanes 1 and 2 were empty to the horizon. Not wanting to undertake, the 1.9D Rover isn't a good over taker (especially uphill and fully loaded) and there was the odd car in lane 3 'getting on with it' I just sat a reasonable distance behind her, waiting for her to pull over, a downhill bit or lane 3 to stay clear long enough. After a mile or so like this she indicated and pulled into lane one, I went past (and back into lane 1) and she pulled straight back into lane 2 behind me?? I noted she stayed there for the next few miles with cars under/overtaking (and some headlight flashing) her all the way ... (what *is* that all about?).

.

GPS is usefull.. you can calibrate your speedo so that you know what speed you are doing.

You choose how close you drive to the person in front.

That is a big assumption. It will probably bite you one day.

There are plenty of ways to tell if a road is icy without emergency stops.. you learn some of them with experience.

The message from "dennis@home" contains these words:

You do indeed but even at a reasonable distance your view of the road ahead is only partial and what you can't choose in such circumstances is how close the vehicle behind is.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home" saying something like:

Oh yes, you can. Slow-moving old gits are a menace.

Perhaps you're a SMOG?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Cicero saying something like:

Christ, are you for real? It's well seen you don't do much, if any, overtaking if you've never encountered that particular trait.

================================= I see you're still hacking away trying to prove that black is white and desperate to be 'right'.

I don't subscribe to the view that many years and hundreds of thousands of miles are necessarily the proof of driving standards, but since that seems to be a widely used standard I'll give a very brief rundown of my experience.

I've been driving / riding since about the middle of 1955 so that makes a little over 51 years experience of unblemished driving. No fines, no points, no convictions. Much of my early learning was on a variety of HGVs and I did spells of general haulage, tipper driving on motorway construction and in the 1970s I also drove Transits towing heavy unbraked trailers.

Personal driving / riding includes solo and combination bikes and a modicum of Continental holiday driving.

I have no idea what total mileage I've done over the past 50+ years because it never occurred to me to keep any kind of tally. However, I've usually commuted fairly long distances including several long periods of approximately 80 miles per day so my personal and professional driving total must be quite considerable.

I don't claim to have 'seen it all' but I've seen enough over the years to know that patience is a good basis for safe driving and overtaking is just one of the more hazardous manoeuvres for which I advised caution.

Your dangerous 'advice' was overtake just to maintain your speed and nothing can conceal the stupidity of that advice.

Cic.

The message from Cicero contains these words:

So I was right in my original conclusion that you were at the very end of your driving life. A delayed reaction old fogey or very close to it. It was only your degeneration into your second childhood that led me astray. If you were 16 in 1955 then you are only 5 years or so older than me. Rather early to be going senile but not unheard of. ISTR Harold Wilson was only 60. OTOH if you started on HGVs you would be several years older.

As for your conclusion above all you are proving your almost total lack of understanding of what others say or, alternatively, a total lack of respect for the truth. You accuse me of using my imagination but the reverse is the truth. To claim that | advised anyone to overtake just to maintain their speed is a perversion of the truth.

A few of the things I have said (courtesy of Google).

First what I think might be the words you are referring to:

"I much prefer to have a good view of the road ahead and in any case looking out for overtaking opportunities keeps one alert and ready to respond to any emergency."

It doesn't really match your complaint above but I know you took exception to that and having run through the whole thread on Google cannot find anything more apposite although I have a faint recollection of expanding on it somewhere.

The remaining quotes are some of my other references to overtaking than I came across as I reviewed the thread. No doubt you can find fault with all of them.

"My driving instructor used to insist that overtaking was the most dangerous manoeuvre of all and that one should spend as little time as possible on the wrong side of the road when overtaking."

"The first essential for safe overtaking is sufficient clear road. The ability to overtake safely should be an essential skill in the armoury of any good driver but like any skill it benefits from being exercised regularly."

"I generally don't bother to overtake on single carriageway roads these days unless I would prefer to drive at least 10 mph* faster than the vehicle ahead but I might stretch the point if vehicle is large and opaque. I much prefer to have a good view of the road ahead and in any case looking out for overtaking opportunities keeps one alert and ready to respond to any emergency."

"Caution is always a good trait in a driver provided it is not taken to absurd lengths."

"I don't condone dangerous overtaking, much less promote it."

"An as for "some arbitrary target speed" what nonsense. I aim to drive well within the limits of myself, my car, the road conditions and the other traffic"

"As it happens I don't think I can out drive everyone and don't try. I get overtaken as well. Roads aren't racetracks."

"I find driving at my chosen speed less stressful than the close proximity that goes with convoy driving."

"We all make mistakes from time to time. The trick to surviving is to drive with sufficient verve to keep concentrating on the job in hand but with sufficient margin to cope both with your own shortcomings and those of the other drivers."

I did say 'by and large'..there is less variation round roads than between other drivers, by a huge margin.

If you have an outside temp gauge, well thats one way.

All others depend on testing tyres to the limit of grip.

Frankly, wheelspin or braking are a lot safer than any lateral tests.

Once you hit the snow ..you NEED to know how much grip you have. Just knowing that its 'snow' doesn't help.

Maybe your car has too much power steering?

It helps a lot. You can switch the ABS off to start with.

================================== Still clutching at straws I see and desperate to convince yourself that all those people you've bored with your silly, arrogant tales of your driving skills weren't laughing at you behind your back.

Your fevered imagination is in overdrive and you believe the silly picture you've conjured up because that's the only way you can convince yourself that you're still superior to everybody else on the road. You know nothing of my driving except that I advise and practise safe driving whilst you condemned safe driving as a sign of incompetence. Insurance companies like and reward my driving skills.

Your stupid and dangerous advice even produced an 'I don't believe it.....' from another poster because your advice was so outrageous.

And more significantly you're a silly ditherer - a dangerous trait when you're trying to learn belatedly to drive properly. You threatened days ago to killfile me and you're still dithering about it because you think that if you keep on trotting out your convoluted arguments everybody is bound to agree with you just to get away from your boring and pointless efforts to prove how wonderful you are.

You started by condemning safe driving and most of your comments showed an arrogant lack of concern for other safer drivers. Probably for the first time in your life you've been told how dangerous your attitude is and you don't like it.

Cic.

The message from "dennis@home" contains these words:

Not with any of the 3 cars I have had with ABS over the last 20 years. With ABS in snow on a steep hill you can still steer to a certain extent but you sure as hell can't stop.

The message from Cicero contains these words:

All those laughing behind my back please own up. :-)

One thing I know for certain is that your advice has very little connection with safe driving. Your reaction to my comments (now snipped) is evidence enough. Whether you practice safe driving only you and your associates will actually know.

Did it? Do repeat the response as I can't be bothered to trawl through the whole thread again.

You could of course be referring to my response to your claim that some drivers won't overtake even when it is safe to do because of what might happen if it wasn't safe but you have to read that response in context. Repeating it out of context to create a misleading impression just shows what a dishonest shit you really are.

Still demonstrating your lack of comprehension I see. I said that I would kill file you once you had explained why you thought my initial statement was so dangerous. So far you haven't even attempted to do so preferring instead to paint this imaginary picture of as public enemy number one. I notice you haven't taken on TNT. Are you a coward as well?

I have no interest in demonstrating how wonderful I am (which in any case is untrue like most of what you surmise). I have requoted some of what I have said before to remind our readers that I am a much more reasonable person than you give me credit for. I leave it to them to judge whether or not I fit the fiendish picture you have painted of me.

There is nothing safe about closing the door on overtaking drivers regardless of whether they are behaving safely or not. I doubt very much whether drivers who do not concentrate on their driving are safer than those that do and I remain convinced that drivers who do not overtake when it safe to do so because they are worried by what should happen if it wasn't safe are nothing short of incompetent.

Now back to square one. Justify your original attack on me or accept that you were wrong by not doing so.

I can then kill file you. I am sure you will find the company of Dribble, Weatherlawyer and a few other choice specimens such as the late Chris Bacon congenial company.