Just came across this thread...
I remember switching the travelers on the 3-way switch in a friend's condo's bathroom (there's a door from the bedroom hallway as well as from the main entrance as there's only one bathroom) so that it would be possible for both switches to be down when the lights are off. (of course, it's also possible for both switches to be *up*, and I had to explain that to her...)
I actually get it. I (and my friend) must have some light form of OCD.
nate
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Actually, the case above starts out w/ all down so when the second turns the light off the case is that now there are two up in that room and the rest are down. So, "off" is always going to be in pairs, but those pairs are distributed semi-randomly owing to usage and so after a period of time the state of any given on is indeterminate as is its control action when changing state...the point still being that it takes severe constraints on usage that make the point of having multiple switch locations essentially moot to achieve the goal of always just turning "off" a switch having the action of turning off the light.
That's greatest schematic I've ever seen! One glance and you easily see how the multi-switch works.
Exactly what I've got. The 'X' switch is a piece of cake to swap. I'll have to examine the SPDT to see how they're marked, maybe it's obvious there too.
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Of course they are; how else would anybody wire them? The common is different from the two travelers; the location of which terminal is common is _not_ necessarily the same physically on various switches.
But, see the comments earlier--it still doesn't matter how you arrange the travelers or orient the switches themselves in the boxes _unless_ you're also willing to only use them under very restrictive operating conditions--otherwise they'll migrate to alternate positions w/ time as the various ones are operated to turn lights/appliances/whatever on/off individually. Soon unless you again do the exercise of placing them all individually back to the one known state you still don't have the desired result in general. That result is just not possible(+) w/o those kinds of restrictions (which pretty much defeats the whole point of having multiple locations to begin with).
(+) Again, w/ conventional house wiring using 3- and 4-way switches. It could be done as others have noted w/ additional relay logic or such.
No, you're never going to be able to wire it so that no matter what the other switch toggle positions are, that you can always shut the light off by flipping any switch's toggle down. That won't work.
But, you can always return to the original situation where the light is OFF with all switch toggles down, and flipping ANY switch's toggle up turns the light on, which is what I think he wanted.
Well, you're doing better than me. I had to look at it for a while to understand that it couldn't "not work", and HAD TO work.
Think of it this way:
A) The two 3 way switches on the end are easy enough to understand. You have two conductors connecting the same terminals on both switches, and whether the light is on or off depends entirely on whether or not the two 3 way switches are set to send and recieve power through the same terminal on each switch or not.
B) The 4 way switches (however many you have of them) simply divert power to the "other" conductor every time their toggles are flipped.
So, regardless of how the two end 3-way switches are set, flipping the toggle of any of the intermediary 4 way switches will send power down the "other" conductor to the "other" terminal on the end three way switch, thereby turning the light on or off.
It's simple once you understand it. But, so is everything else on this good Earth.
Its probably easiest to run this setup on a X10 remote OR have momentary contact switches drive a relay.
both would cost less to install and be easier to trouble shoot in the future
nestork wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@diybanter.com:
Nonsense. Of course it will: changing the position of *any* of the switches changes the state of the light. If it's on, and any switch is up, flipping that switch down will turn it off.
That, however, is not what the OP is asking to do.
No, that is not what he wanted. He made it very clear that he wanted to know by looking which specific switch turned it on, *and* turn it off using that specific switch
-- and does not (and apparently cannot) understand that the first of these is impossible and the second unnecessary.
I'm amazed at how many people proceed with the "how to" without understanding that they are tilting at windmills. The most you can get with any of these rewiring attempts is to get one defined position. If, for example you want that one position to be that the light is off with all switches in a down position, you can do that. Cool. But just take out a piece of paper and make a table. With
4 switches, there are 16 possible combination of switch position. List all 16 together with if the light is on or off. With the rewiring or rotating of the switches, you get ONE of those table entries to be all switches down, light off. But that's all you get. There are other table entries with the light off and the switches in various states.As I said previously, I can see achieving that to be of some small value. For example, if you're leaving the house for vacation and you want to look at each switchplate in the house prior to leaving, if they are all down, then all the lights are off. But you can't determine squat from looking at one switch. And almost all of us would just look at the light.
Glad they did. Learned a lot about wiring and potential wiring examples.
Being pedantic, four light switches yield 8 patterns ON and 8 patterns OFF for a 'total' of 16 patterns.
Of little value? I asked for factual help, not opinions, although opinions are of interest and appreciate hearing to better understand why the world i s the way it is.
To better understand importance to me: again this home has many 'courtesy' light switches. There are multiple switches to turn ON/OFF the same light p laced about home as a 'courtesy'. What I mean is, is that the likelihood of entering an area, using the light switch, exiting the area and using the S AME light switch is the most likely pattern of switch use. Many of the room s have more than 3 such entrances/exits. and it is handy to be able to leav e the switch in a known pattern. During the day, it is somehow pleasing to look about and see that all the light switches are in the OFF possitions, a nd all the little mounting screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch o f neatness and professionalism to the installation. [the screws were all pl aced in the identical positions by the original contractor, which I interpr et as a sign of quality workmanship and attention to details]
As far as looking at the light to see if it is ON, yes, one can see the lig ht is ON, but late at night in the attempt to turn that light OFF, I don't want to turn ON the major overhead lights, or one of the bedroom reading li ghts, or the ?? light as I fumble about at night trying to remember which s witch will turn OFF the light [albeit I had just turned the light ON minute s before], which, yes, I can clearly see is now ON.
Maybe a better explanation is that, when in a hurry, when entering a room l ight switch panels have one order of control, but when exiting the room the order is reversed. Yes, I knnow that left is still left and right is still right, but that requres one to 'stop' and face the panel set, and 'think' about it. That's what I want to avoid. I want the simple menomic of a switc h UP is ON and a swtich DOWN is OFF, then there is NO thinking, simply hit the switch when going by.
I understand that in smaller homes with 'tubular' hallways that have single switches in each panel that arbitrary positions of the switches are indeed a 'no never mind'
F for a 'total' of 16 patterns.
s are of interest and appreciate hearing to better understand why the world is the way it is.
The problem is, that as the problem was described and as most of us understood it, there was no factual way to achieve it. Also, if someone asks something that seems odd, it would seem better that we try to fully understand what it is they are trying to accomplish, rather than just giving directions. If someone asked how to best apply tar coating to the drywall in their living room, what would you do?
' light switches. There are multiple switches to turn ON/OFF the same light placed about home as a 'courtesy'. What I mean is, is that the likelihood of entering an area, using the light switch, exiting the area and using the SAME light switch is the most likely pattern of switch use. Many of the ro oms have more than 3 such entrances/exits. and it is handy to be able to le ave the switch in a known pattern. During the day, it is somehow pleasing t o look about and see that all the light switches are in the OFF possitions, and all the little mounting screws are in the 12-6 position to add a touch of neatness and professionalism to the installation. [the screws were all placed in the identical positions by the original contractor, which I inter pret as a sign of quality workmanship and attention to details]
ight is ON, but late at night in the attempt to turn that light OFF, I don' t want to turn ON the major overhead lights, or one of the bedroom reading lights, or the ?? light as I fumble about at night trying to remember which switch will turn OFF the light [albeit I had just turned the light ON minu tes before], which, yes, I can clearly see is now ON.
And again, that works assuming the other switches that control that light are in the down position, or one of the other possible combinations.
light switch panels have one order of control, but when exiting the room t he order is reversed. Yes, I knnow that left is still left and right is sti ll right, but that requres one to 'stop' and face the panel set, and 'think ' about it. That's what I want to avoid. I want the simple menomic of a swi tch UP is ON and a swtich DOWN is OFF, then there is NO thinking, simply hi t the switch when going by.
It's when you male statements like the last sentence above that we seem to be heading back to square one. It works only if the other switches are in the right position.
le switches in each panel that arbitrary positions of the switches are inde ed a 'no never mind'
It's that way in all homes. In fact, the larger the home the more switches you have on an n-way, the more any or all of the switches could be in any position.
In a previous post you said that the electrician didn't pay any attention to which way the switches were oriented to one another. I'll bet you can't find an electrician that paid any attention, because of the reasons already discussed.
On 6/27/2013 10:03 AM, Robert Macy wrote: ...
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Can no be done other than by other logic (positions, that is) as has been beat to death by now.
IMO the thing to do is to have the positions from left to right in the gang switch boxes make physical sense as from "inside-out" be associated from near-to-far (or vice versa, your choice, but to me it makes more sense for the closer to be the outer simply because that's the way Dad did it for the ones here so it's what I grew up with but either works you just need to be consistent and learn the pattern) at each doorway. Then, w/ time you should learn innately which is what and the thinking part goes away.
+1
That's how I do it too. And it that regard, it would be nice if electricians put them in that way to begin with. A classic example is I have two switches here in one spot. One controls the lights on the front porch. The other controls a ceiling light near the closet by the front door. I would have put them in so that the switch for the porch light is closest to the front of the house. It's the opposite. I was too lazy to move it, but I know there are two such instances in the house where they are like this, ie the opposite of what you would expect. I have no problem identifying what switch works what.
Robert Macy wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com: [snip]
And here, I think, we finally have the *real* issue.
Personally, I do not think it is a disorder! However, there may be times when it could pose a problem.
Back in the 60s, I worked for a company that sold equipment to the military for use in Viet Nam. They had a rash of problems in the field with new equipment that had worked perfectly at final test. The equipment would be returned, re-aligned, and then be defective again when received back in the field. They finally traced the problem to a mechanical inspector who lined up all the screw slots before it was packed for shipment.
My stairway has three-way switches at the top and bottom, set so the light is on when both switches are in the same position. I'm the only one here, and always use the light when using the stairs. The switch where I'm at is always up-for-on/down-for-off.
Fred
Sorry Fred, but if you flip the other switch, you'll find that the switch where you're at is always up-for-off/down-for-on.
That's just the nature of 3-way switches.
I should have remembered the old rule, never complain, never explain.
Yes, I was wrong for even thinking about trying to change my light switches . After all, it's always better to live in this world by accepting everythi ng presented. Instead of flailing at the impossible, it is always better to change one's own attitude towards the situation.
Wait, this wasn't 'impossible'! As a matter of fact, I now have not only wh at I wanted all along but additionally have some insights into light switch controllers not even thought of before, thanks to the many excellent contr ibutions.
My 'problem' was solved *and* my horizons expanded. Talk about win, win. We ll, almost, feathers slightly ruffled by the chidings, but small price to p ay, eh?
Next time, I won't explain 'why' I want to tar the drywall in my living roo m.
So a few times a day go through the house and turn all the switches down. If a light is on turn one of the controlling switches upside down (only has to be done once).
If you want to know if the lights are on or off replace the switches with switches that have pilot lights in the handle.
I certainly wouldn't interpret that as a sign of quality workmanship - may or may not be.
Yet one more good reason for Americans to finally recognize the inherent superiority of the Robertson drive screw.
[image:The Robertson drive has FOUR identical screw head positions with each screw rotation, thereby doubling your chances of achieving perfect screw head alignment amongst multiple screws.
A USA friendly version of 4 way switching:
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