snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:
Do try to pay attention here. The *only* purpose of that statement was to point out your error.
Yes, of course -- but that's not what you said at first. You said "with an even number of switches, you will always have an even number of switches in a certain position with the lights off" -- and that just is not true. It's quite possible to have three up and one down, with the lights off.
Why not use a special color for the switches you are concerned about, or always make them the left-hand most switch in a bank of adjacent switches. Unless you are developing Alzheimers, you are making a big deal out of what most of us do on a routine basis many times a day.
down position, the lights will always end up OFF.
Then you should be able to provide the excerpt where he says EXACTLY that. Funny thing. You haven't.
And assuming it's true, what good does it do again? If you only look at one or two switches, you still don't know that the light is on or off. Doug tried to make that point to you as well. So, you have to walk around to check at least 3 switches. He's so concerned, he'd probably check all 4. Does that make any sense as opposed to just looking at the hallway light to see if it's on or off? I've yet to see a 3 way, 4 way, hallway light where whether the light was on or off was not easily determinable from each switch. That's kind of the whole purpose, so that you can turn the light for that area on or off from the various areas it serves.
four switches DOWN, and light OFF. It's a form of OCD.
Thanks for the diagnosis. You've confirmed that what he's trying to do makes no sense.
switches in a certain position with the lights off. Either four down, two down, or four up.
the lights to be OFF." That is not what he wants.
Seems I'm not the only one that interpreted it that way.
required was swapping the wires on the first switch.
I hope he's happy now. When leaving the hallway, he can either go check 3 switches to make sure they are down and the light is off. Me, I'd just look at the light as I'm exiting the hallway. Good grief!
the down position, the lights will always end up OFF.
Funny thing. You haven't.
four switches DOWN, and light OFF. It's a form of OCD.
switches in a certain position with the lights off. Either four down, two down, or four up.
the lights to be OFF." That is not what he wants.
required was swapping the wires on the first switch.
Yes, we all agree, what he wants makes no sense. But what he wants is for the light to be off when ALL the switches are down.
jamesgang wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:
That's not difficult. All he needs to do is flip all the switches down, and then look at the light:
-- if the light is off, he's finished.
-- if the light is on, remove a faceplace and turn any one of the four switches upside down.
snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:
nd then look at the light:
itches upside down.
Again, I understand your lack of sympathy. When there's a single switch in the panel at the ends of a hall; UP/DOWN makes NO difference. However, I've got over 20 light panels containing racks of up to 5 switches per panel! As I said, if light switches can be made to be all down when off; it's easy to tell which light switch activated the light. But, when you have a rack of switches in arbitray positions and all your lights are out but one...
Quoting from one of my replies to another: "From all the replies there's not been much sympathy for the confusion
3,4,5-way switches can cause. I agree, if there's a single switch controlling the light set, not a biggie, don't care about up or down position, but when you have light switch panels containing 4 and sometimes 5 switches it can be a bit daunting when you're half asleep. and don't want to exercise every frigging light in the room trying to find the right one."And again, turning a switch over is not a viable option. The wiring is often too short, the boxes are FILLED with wiring, and the wiring itself is NOT very flexible. This may have been 12 Awg wiring, will have to check. So turning a switch over puts the GND wire at the top and distorts everything so much that the switch never lies flat again and cosmetically looks terrible after the cover plate is replaced.
innews: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:
then look at the light:
switches upside down.
You can accomplish the same thing Doug suggests by swapping the travelers at one switch. A 3-way switch will have one screw that has a different marking than the other two. Swap the two wires on the terminals that have the same markings.
Robert Macy wrote in news:d35c507e-2439-4719-9411- snipped-for-privacy@9g2000yqq.googlegroups.com:
First -- why do you care which switch activated the light? When one light is controlled from four different switches, any one of the four can turn it on -- and any one of the four can turn it off, too. What possibile difference could it make, to know which switch turned it on? You can turn it off from any of the other three. You don't have to turn it off using the same switch that turned it on.
Second -- you're wrong about it being "easy to tell" anyway. Suppose you have four switches controlling the same light; suppose further that you've succeeded in configuring this so that the light is off when all four are down. If three of the four are
*up*, which one turned it on? For that matter, even if only *one* of them is up you *still * don't know which one turned the light on most recently: flip switch 1 up, light goes on; flip switch 2 up, light goes off; flip switch 1 *down*, light goes on. Switch 2 is up, but switch *1* turned the light on.
Robert-
I missed the earlier comments, but I see a point of confusion.
Do you want any one switch to be able to turn off the light if a different switch turned it on? That requires a string of switches, with the end switches in a SPDT configuration. Any intermediate switches would be in a DPDT configuration. (There may be some 4 terminal switches intended for this function.) As mentioned, you could swap two wires at any one of the switches to give you "All Down Equals OFF".
But that would be of little value if you want to know which one switch was responsible for leaving the light on. For that, you would simply connect all SPST switches in parallel. All switches in the up position would need to be turned off for the light to go off. Then you would not have "N-Way" switches where one of N switches could turn off a light another switch turned on.
Fred
Fred McKenzie wrote in news:fmmck-CB580A.22112020062013@
5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com:
You're missing what Robert's *really* confused about... see below.
Knowing which switch is responsible for leaving the light on is of no value to begin with. If the light can be turned on OR OFF from any of multiple switches, WHO CARES which switch turned it on? It. Does. Not. Matter.
... thus completely defeating the purpose of having multiple switches.
begin with. If the
Heh, I'm with you on this one Doug. I don't see the point to the whole exercise. But there are others here like Dennis, that think we shouldn't be asking the question about "why" he wants it, what purpose it serves, just tell him how to do it.
He started off with:
"Plus, (original installer) paid no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches end up in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to change. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the cabling comes down through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but still reaches.
Big problem is the best way to change the switching action of the multiple control switch. "
Which implies that there is an expectation of what the "proper position is for 3-way, 4-way, 5-way switches should be to each other? No electrician even considers this, because the light can be on with some switches up, some down and no one that I know cares. You just look at the light. If Robert rewires it so that the light is off with all 4 down, then if you're standing at one switch and the light is off, all you know is that the one corresponding switch is also down. You still don't know what position the other two switches are in. So, AFAIK, you would have to go check one of those as well. Or you could just look at the light. In every case I've seen, it's easier to look at the light for a hallway, then check at least two switches....
If this really is an OCD thing, like Dennis says, that's fine, and he can get all 4 down with the light off. It's just that if it really solves something that we're missing, it would be nice to know what that is. Like you, if someone wants to set about fiddling with something that is work and seems to serve no purpose, I try to understand the real objective, so that we're not just providing steps in some process that doesn't solve anything.
, 10:54 am, Doug Miller >wrote: >> j amesgang wrote innews:d7de7a5e-5053-4536-a165-43b6e snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com: >> >> > Yes, we all agree, what he wants makes no sense. But what he >> > wants is for the light to be off when ALL the s witches are down. >> >> That's not difficult. All he needs to do is flip al l the switches down, and then look at the light: >> -- if the light is off, he's finished. >> -- if the light is on, remove a faceplace and turn any o ne of the four switches upside down. > >Again, I understand your lack of sy mpathy. When there's a single >switch in the panel at the ends of a hall; U P/DOWN makes NO >difference. However, I've got over 20 light panels contain ing racks of >up to 5 switches per panel! As I said, if light switches can be made >to be all down when off; it's easy to tell which light switch >act ivated the light. But, when you have a rack of switches in arbitray >positi ons and all your lights are out but one... > >Quoting from one of my replie s to another: > "From all the replies there's not been much sympathy for th e >confusion >3,4,5-way switches can cause. I agree, if there's a single sw itch >controlling the light set, not a biggie, don't care about up or down
s 5 switches it can be a bit daunting when you're half >asleep. and don't w ant to exercise every frigging light in the room >trying to find the right one." > >And again, turning a switch over is not a viable option. The wirin g is >often too short, the boxes are FILLED with wiring, and the wiring >it self is NOT very flexible. This may have been 12 Awg wiring, will >have to check. So turning a switch over puts the GND wire at the top >and distorts everything so much that the switch never lies flat again >and cosmetically looks terrible after the cover plate is replaced. You can accomplish the sa me thing Doug suggests by swapping the travelers at one switch. A 3-way swi tch will have one screw that has a different marking than the other two. Sw ap the two wires on the terminals that have the same markings.
Thank you. I didn't see any such markings, but on the next set will look fo r them!
all down when off; it's easy to tell which light switch > activated the lig ht. But, when you have a rack of switches in arbitray > positions and all y our lights are out but one... Robert- I missed the earlier comments, but I see a point of confusion. Do you want any one switch to be able to turn off the light if a different switch turned it on? That requires a string of sw itches, with the end switches in a SPDT configuration. Any intermediate swi tches would be in a DPDT configuration. (There may be some 4 terminal switc hes intended for this function.) As mentioned, you could swap two wires at any one of the switches to give you "All Down Equals OFF". But that would b e of little value if you want to know which one switch was responsible for leaving the light on. For that, you would simply connect all SPST switches in parallel. All switches in the up position would need to be turned off fo r the light to go off. Then you would not have "N-Way" switches where one o f N switches could turn off a light another switch turned on. Fred
Fred, can't understand the source for this confusion. I want any switch to be able to turn ON/OFF the lights as before. It's just that I need to be ab le to 'set' them all up at least once in their lifetime so that late at nig ht it's easier to figure out which switch turned on the light. Hopefully so mebody read my replies and can see how it can get out of hand when you have MANY, up to 5 switches in a single row, as to figure it out easily. like s econd nature, oh that switch is up therefore that's the switch to turn it b ack off. don't have to think about it. You have no idea what it's like to b e confronted with five switches all set to arbitrary positions to quickly s hut the one you want off - without turning on one you don't want.
On Friday, June 21, 2013 7:25:03 AM UTC-7, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:
nzie wrote in news:fmmck-CB580A.22112020062013@ > > 5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com: >
switches can be made > > >> to be all down when off; it's easy to tell whic h light switch > > >> activated the light. But, when you have a rack of swi tches in arbitray > > >> positions and all your lights are out but one... > > > > > > Robert- > > > > > > I missed the earlier comments, but I see a p oint of confusion. > > > > You're missing what Robert's *really* confused a bout... see below. > > > > > > Do you want any one switch to be able to tur n off the light if a > > > different switch turned it on? That requires a s tring of switches, with > > > the end switches in a SPDT configuration. Any intermediate switches > > > would be in a DPDT configuration. (There may b e some 4 terminal > > > switches intended for this function.) As mentioned, you could swap two > > > wires at any one of the switches to give you "All Down Equals OFF". > > > > > > But that would be of little value if you wan t to know which one switch > > > was responsible for leaving the light on.
no value to begin with. If the > > light can be turned on OR OFF from any o f multiple switches, WHO CARES which switch > > turned it on? It. Does. Not . Matter. > > > > >For that, you would simply > > > connect all SPST switch es in parallel. All switches in the up position > > > would need to be turn ed off for the light to go off. Then you would not > > > have "N-Way" switc hes where one of N switches could turn off a light > > > another switch tur ned on. > > > > ... thus completely defeating the purpose of having multipl e switches. Heh, I'm with you on this one Doug. I don't see the point to th e whole exercise. But there are others here like Dennis, that think we shou ldn't be asking the question about "why" he wants it, what purpose it serve s, just tell him how to do it. He started off with: "Plus, (original instal ler) paid no attention to having all of the individual multiple switches en d up in any proper position when the hallway light is off, so want to chang e. Swapping these two switches in their physical location in the box is no problem the wiring appears to be long enough, although the cabling comes do wn through the inlet holes in the wrong places. but still reaches. Big prob lem is the best way to change the switching action of the multiple control switch. " Which implies that there is an expectation of what the "proper po sition is for 3-way, 4-way, 5-way switches should be to each other? No elec trician even considers this, because the light can be on with some switches up, some down and no one that I know cares. You just look at the light. If Robert rewires it so that the light is off with all 4 down, then if you're standing at one switch and the light is off, all you know is that the one corresponding switch is also down. You still don't know what position the o ther two switches are in. So, AFAIK, you would have to go check one of thos e as well. Or you could just look at the light. In every case I've seen, it 's easier to look at the light for a hallway, then check at least two switc hes.... If this really is an OCD thing, like Dennis says, that's fine, and he can get all 4 down with the light off. It's just that if it really solve s something that we're missing, it would be nice to know what that is. Like you, if someone wants to set about fiddling with something that is work an d seems to serve no purpose, I try to understand the real objective, so tha t we're not just providing steps in some process that doesn't solve anythin g.
... I don't know why it's so difficult to understand WHY I'd like the switches to be at least once in their lives setting ALL in the proper position. You evidently don't have a house with a lot of lighting controls and multiple s witch plates. I have agreed in previous posts that *if* this were a single light switch plate at four different locations to control an overhead ligh t; no biggie. I don't care WHAT position they're in, because THAT light swi tch obviously controls THAT light, done. But when you have racks and racks of multi-controller switches running ?? around your bedroom; it would be ni ce to have the switches at least be 'settable' to a mnemonic configuration, where OFF is down, then when turn one on it's obvious which light switch t o turn off to get back to ALL lights off. Else, you're stuck out there in t he 30 by 50 ft room trying to remember exactly which one in the rack of 5 i s the one to shut off! Results, you wake up and have to 'think' about the light switches. Don't want that, don't want to have to completely wake up, rather scan the switches and think, oh that's the one and OFF it goes - don e and can go back to sleep.
I'm not even going to get into the problem of explaining the switches to a guest in the house! Or, I could say, "Yeah, feel free to play with the swit ches until you get the right one." A guest unfamiliar with the switch setup only has to look at the rack and notice which one is up to turn off a ligh t.
Knowing which switch is responsible for leaving the light on is of no value to begin with. If the light can be turned on OR OFF from any of multiple switches, WHO CARES which switch turned it on? It. Does. Not. Matter.
WRONG! Yes, it does matter. see other replies.
One other suggestion that may help you if you want to change the location of the switches in the box would be to use stranded wire as a jumper wire. If the wire connected to the switch goes to a wirenut, replace that short wire with stranded wire.
To be able to splice stranded wire to solid wire, a little trick is to twist all the solid wire together first. Then, when you add the stranded piece, make sure the stranded wire is sticking up just a little farther than the solid, so the wirenut grabs the strands of copper just before it bites into the solid.
You also need a special type switch so that the stranded wire goes behind a pressure plate instead of trying to twist it around a screw.
They also sell a stranded wire in green that comes with a screw on one end and a terminal lug on the other. If there is a screw hole in the box you can just screw the bonding wire directly to the box and attach the switch screw directly to the green. (You need to make sure the bundle of bare wires is bonded to the box)
Take pictures of what you have before you change anything. Mark everything. A gang of 4 switches is going to be pretty confusing unless you know where every cable in the box goes.
The green bonding wire is probably not going to work for you. I am used to working at hospitals where the boxes are metal. Your house will probably not have metal boxes.
On 6/21/2013 12:35 PM, Robert Macy wrote: ...
But, as soon as one of these is switched from another location somewhere else it screws it up anyway, so there's really no point--they'll be at odd positions in the other panel(s), anyway.
Labels would seem to be the think if you really have so many you can't recall which one is what...
The most there is in this house is one set of four at the outside door but they're installed in a logical order from top to bottom--yard,porch,entry,dining. Consequently it's no issue to know which to hit; even visitors figure it out pretty quickly w/o formal training. :)
It would seem like such an arrangement should be possible to at least ameliorate the problem if not totally solve it. OTOH, I'd probably just simplify and eliminate the switches if were so annoying as it sounds as if were... :)
Okay.
If I'm understanding correctly, he wants to be able to tell if a circuit is on or off by looking at the switch.
The standard convention for switches is up for ON, down for OFF, but this doesn't work for multiple control switches.
So, why not solve the problem with a pilot light? A small indicator light by each switch would glow when that circuit has power. Or when it doesn't, either way.
I've seen this done for refrigeration equipment, maybe for boilers, I think a couple of other applications. If you have a freezer on a switch you like to know nobody turned it off.
The advantage of this is he could see the switch panel in the dark and know without turning anything on.
On 6/21/2013 2:50 PM, TimR wrote: ...
...
Yeah, and w/ the number he's talking about it'll look like Christmas... :)
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