Wiring dilema

I am updating wiring in my basement as part of major renovation project. I have three basement recessed light circuits sitting on the same breaker. There is 12 AWG wire running from main panel to the entrance switch box and from the switch box there are three separate 12 AWG wires bringing power to each of three recessed lights circuit. One of the circuits are 4-way switch that controls 4 recessed lights. Unfortunately one of three switches has old AWG 14 wire running to the nearest box and there is no way to replace it as it is virtually inaccessible. Al other wires are new AWG 12. There are total of 25 recessed lights so maximum amperage may exceed (or be near) 15 A. I want to use 20 A circuit breaker but I have concern over the switch AWG 14 wire. Again, the switch is basically in sub-circuit that has only 4 lights that is considerable less even then 15 A. So may I safely use 20 A circuit breaker in main panel?

Reply to
Alexander Galkin
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Sure. As long as there are no receptacles on that 14-guage leg, and as long as the total wattage of the 4 fixtures won't/can't exceed 15A (thats 1800W of lighting at 120V, you don't anticipate putting 500W bulbs in them, do you? I'm guessing with that many fixtures, you're running a 60W or 75W tops in each?) there is no practical way you could overload the wattage total with those 4 fixtures. A 100 Watt bulb in each fixture is a total draw of only 3.33 A.

This is where the "code is code is code" types will stop by and argue, mainly because they pick every possible fight with me. Code is code, but sometimes code needs to be *practical*. If you had a *practical* way of replacing that piece of wire, I would say sure, follow code.

Those are the numbers, do what you feel comfortable with.

TP

Reply to
Tom Pendergast

No. Are your recessed lights the type where you can replace the bulb with compact fluorescents? You could save a lot of money if you really are running 15 amps just for lighting. You could easily be chewing up

150 kwh a month or more just on that one circuit.

Are these cannisters? That's the only lighting style I can imagine that approaches anywhere near that level of inefficiency. Your 15 amp breaker is only rated for 12 amps continuous, so you need to stay under 57.6 average watts per fixture. You could do that with a mix of 40 and 60 watt incandescents, or just install 23 watt compact fluorescents, which provide as much light as 100 watt incandescents and would drop the circuit to a 4.7 amp draw.

Reply to
Larry Caldwell

No Tom. Not only is it against code and would be pointed out by any inspector, but it can also be dangerous.

Who knows what the next guy might due and increase that to over 15 amps, or if there is some odd malfunction at on the load, it could exceed 15 amps. That is exactly why there are circuit breakers to start with. Other wise who would need any circuit breaker.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

Tommy, anyone but a HACK like you would understand. Read the Code. Learn the Code. Follow the Code. Live because of the Code.

Reply to
Oscar_lives

In alt.home.repair on Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:51:03 -0400 "Alexander Galkin" posted:

It's important to be concerned about the expected load, but one should also think about the unexpected load. For example maybe there will be a total short circuit. Even though 14 gauge wire is only rated for 15 amp, I'm sure it can carry more than 20 amps for a few seconds in case of a total short, and the 20 amp circuit breaker will blow.

Besides the situation described by someone where a later person increases the load, the theoretical problem now would be that there was some partial short circuit, whatever that would be, that allowed ore than 15 amps to flow, but fewer than 20. The breaker would not trip, but the wire would in theory be hot enough to start a fire. (well, not if it were 16 amps. It would just be a little hotter than at 15. I don't know when it gets hot enough to make a fire. Although I have phone lines in the house that sometimes work fine and sometimes give a big hum and don't work. There's no telling what can happen.

If you can't change the wires, can you put a 15 amp circuit breaker in that circuit only. Is there any way to do this without a circuit breaker box? I don't know. What about a light bulb socket, or a screw-in fuse socket, rated for more than 15 amps that has instead a

15 amp fuse. Presumably it will never blow, so one box of 4 will last you forever. If it does blow more than once, you'll decide what to do then. Is such a fuse within code. If there are no exposed metal parts it certainly seems safe enough. If not there must be minicircuit breaker boxes. Or bring the 14 guage wire back to the main fuse box and do it there. (All wire nuts must be within a junction box, I beleive. (What about soldered wires?)

Meirman

If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter.

Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

Reply to
meirman

Code, for the most part, has been written in response to fires etc. It is there to, as much as possible, to prevent death and damage, from the unexpected. Anytime it is ignored opens the door for serious problems.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

Locally at least, getting out of bed doesn't violate code. Wiring any leg of a 20 amp protected circuit with lower gauge wire *is* against code *and* dangerous.

Because the next guy adds a basement workshop. There's a convenient

20 amp circuit he can tap into, and as far as he can tell, there' not much on it. So he wires his basement workshop from a junction box on that circuit.

Most certainly. How was it you thought electrical fires started if current was always off when an overheating condition occurs?

By screwing in 500 W bulbs into each can? Would you advocate labeling all dashboards "Do not drive through intersections until path is clear" and then remove all traffic signals? Or he screws an outlet adapter into the lamp base, then runs seven extension cords to his space heaters and high-wattage lights that keep his marijuana crop growing well. He obeyed your stickers...

In my case. yes.

How do you feel about the fact that the previous owner of your home chose based on your advice?

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Cochran

How else would you fascist conservatives keep-up with our activities?

Op

Reply to
Guyz-N-Flyz

We only allow conservatives to use it. It's all part of our secret plan to eliminate you.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

Everything I've either read or been told states that #14awg wire *cannot* be protected by a 20 amp breaker. If you're an electrician, I can't believe that you would suggest to someone that they ignore this basic tenet.

In fact, in my municipality, #14awg wire is going by the wayside because local codes forbid it's use in new construction. Even our local Lowe's and HD's are starting to phase it out and not carry it anymore.

Alexander, I strongly recommend you ignore this person's advice and hire a

*licensed electrician* to handle this part of your project - someone who will pull the necessary permit(s) and do the job correctly and to code. I know it will cost you more money, but I can assure you that it will be money well spent. If you have a fire and it's traced to your "not-to-code" wiring project, your homeowner's insurance will not be worth the paper it's printed on.

You could also conceivably be setting yourself up as a target for litigation if you sell your home and a future homeowner has a fire, particularly if serious injury or death is involved. Even if he/she is stupid because he/she plugged in a table saw and a space heater into a receptacle screwed into one of the light fixture sockets, you could still be sued by both the homeowner *and* his insurance company.

Reply to
Banister Stairwell

OK, following majority's advise I will do something to formally adhere to the code. Although technically I believe I would be just fine installing a

20 A breaker. First, that AVG 14 wire that connects one of 4 way switches is covered by stairs so it is not possible to replace it without ripping off stairs completely. This also leads to the fact that it is not possible to add any load to this switch. All other wires in the circuit are AVG 12 so even if "some guy would connect table saw, or heater" or anything else as has been discussed it won't burn that AVG 14 wire as current won't flow over it. Yes, there is code but there is also common sense, that is not less important.

Reply to
Alexander Galkin

I think you've made a good choice here.

Perhaps, but you'd be amazed at what an experienced professional electrician can do as far as routing wire through seemingly impossible paths.

Unfortunately, I think if you were to try and make this argument to an insurance company or an attorney, it may very well fall on deaf ears.

Again, you've made a good decision in wanting to do it right and to code. Not that you would have a problem necesssarily, but you'll be covered if you do.

Reply to
Banister Stairwell

This is Turtle.

TP , You say that Joesph's only arguement or point to stand on is it being , it's not to code , and you say he is wrong by wanting to stay to the NEC code. TP when you ask this question to him [ your going to say every job you ever done was to code] . This tells me one of two things about you. 1) Your just bulling here to get a responce from the group to have fun and play a game. OR 2) Your a Very Inane incubus person with no respect at all for human life or property.

Which is it TP ? Yea TP, it's going to be hard to answer this one with out a dictionary for your not going to choose the bulling part are you.

TURTLE

Reply to
TURTLE

Do you know this for a fact?...or are you speculating?

Hope you had a nice 4th weekend...

Trent

Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.

Reply to
Trent©

quoting:

It would not be immediatly dangerous because you're not overloading the #14 wire, but code says you can't overfuse wire, so do it right by doing either one of the following...

1) Find a miracle way to replace the #14 wire with #12. (best)

or

2) Install 15A breaker instead of 20A one.

25 65w flood lamps total 13.75A. Replace the ones that or ON at least three hours continous per day with fluorescent ones to drop the amperage total below 12A, and it should not be a problem on a 15A breaker. Problem solved. Other things that will drop the amperage: dimmers and the fact all of the lights won't be ON all at the same time.

Reply to
JM

A couple of years ago, a business partner of mine had a fire in one of his rental properties. Fortunately, the property was vacant at the time and no one was hurt, but the house was a total loss. His insurance refused to pay the claim because the fire was caused by a "not-to-code" electrical modification that he did. His trying to save a few bucks ended up costing him about $50K.

We did. Hope you did as well.

Reply to
Banister Stairwell

I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer must compensate for the results of an unlawful act."

-- Tom

Reply to
Thomas D. Horne

I don't know that what you are saying applies in every state. In NC, in many counties, you may wire your own home without a license, but you are restricted from selling that house for a certain number of years, IINM. I rewired my mother's home about 10 years ago with the blessing of the county electrical inspector. He came out looked it over and signed off on it.

Op --

Reply to
Guyz-N-Flyz

What I'm saying does apply to every state. You obtained a permit. You passed electrical inspection. The original premise is that if your illegally installed electric work causes a loss your insurance company can walk away. Nothing about your situation indicates that this is not true.

-- Tom

Reply to
Thomas D. Horne

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