Windows 10 will be given away as a free upgrade for its first year of release

Page 3 of 3  
| It doesn't require new hardware and the setup takes a couple of hours, for | most of which you can go off and groom the cat or something. Yes, there are | some specialized applications that are only available on Windows but how | many casual users have them installed? Browse the web, do email, | LibreOffice, and so forth and Linux has it covered. If you absolutely, | positively have to have Quicken and will accept no others, stay with | Windows. |
As a box with a web browser, yes, Linux might not be bad, but it's far more than a couple of hours to learn an entirely new OS if one really uses a computer beyond web browsing and email.
I wouldn't discourage anyone from experimenting and exploring, but it's misleading to present Linux as a great, simple, Windows alternative. It's a perennially half-finished geek project, maintained by people who have religious devotion to the project but who really don't get the importance of finished software that works properly, with a properly made installer, and with good documentation.
As Dan Espen tellingly said: "I can get by in GIMP." Probably he can. Apparently he doesn't do much with graphics. But that's hardly a convincing sales pitch. I'm not religiously devoted to Linux, so I'm not satisfied with "getting by". The last time I tried GIMP it wouldn't even save files in normal formats. It only saved in GIMP format. Files had to be "exported" to save them in other formats. A separate menu option! Why? Because the Gimpsters are hard-nosed and humorless about trying to convert people to their particular trip.
GIMP/OO/Firefox have been the answer from Linux fans for many years now, when presented with the paucity of Linux software. The problem is that their attitude comes from the angle that one uses Linux first, and figures out how to make it work later. It's Linux as religion when it should be Linux as tool.
And that's not even getting into the other half- finished aspects of Linux. After initially exploring Linux many years ago I went back twice to see how it was going. I thought that if I could get a basic setup going easily then maybe I'd stick around for awhile. Both times I set simple goals: Get the system set up and get a clear, easily usable firewall that would allow me full control over incoming and outgoing processes. Then maybe get something that would allow me to make disk images, so that time I spent setting it all up wouldn't be wasted if it crashed. That would be the basic requirement so that I could plug in the network cable and begin using the OS. That was my aim before even considering whether there might be enough software to do anything. My other basic setup requirement was that I should be able to get that setup done without having to resort to primitive command line operations in a console window and without having to dig through obscure config files in /etc. Both times the experiment was short-lived. One can hardly do anything without needing a console window. That's inexcusable in a post-1995 OS.
Even if Linux had pleasantly surprised me, it's a very long journey to go from being intimately familiar with Windows to feeling similarly comfortable in Linux or any other OS. There are a thousand little details. Just going from XP to Win7 I spent a couple of weeks learning the details of the new OS. There's no such thing as "a couple of hours" to switch OSs.
But I'd agree that if someone just wants a consumer device for web browsing, and they only use webmail, and if they can somehow keep the creepy spying and control of Eric Schmidt and Mark Shuttleworth out of the equation, then some kind of Linux device might not be a bad option.... as long as it's dirt cheap. :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mayayana wrote:

Obviously you've never worked with a modern Linux distro. Try it sometime. Perhaps GIMP sucks but I've used it about twice. That's not my bag; software development is.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dan Espen wrote:

Oh, one of those. I stick with gVim and makefiles for the most part. If I want my fortune told or want to play a game of Go I'll go elsewhere than an editor. At least with the graphical version of Emacs I can get out of the damn thing without having to hit more keys simultaneously than I have fingers.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wednesday, January 21, 2015 at 1:17:56 PM UTC-6, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

Here's "Windows 10 Technical Preview" ISO download with COA key.
http://windows.microsoft.com/zh-hk/windows/preview-iso
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 01/24/2015 07:04 AM, bob_villa wrote:

Don't install KB3034229 or you will lose your start button's pop up.
The current preview is still Alpha stage code. (M$ usually releases their Beta code on the public for them to debug for them.)
That being said, Son-of-Frankenstein (w10) preview is a good twice as fast as Frankenstein (w8) on my virtual machine
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| Obviously you've never worked with a modern Linux distro. Try it sometime. | Perhaps GIMP sucks but I've used it about twice. That's not my bag; software | development is.
You demonstate my points. I explain what I find lacking in Linux and you imply that it's perfect by definition. I tell you it doesn't run the software I use and you discount that: You write software. What else would someone do on Linux?
That's the essential Linux problem. The fan club wants to evangelize, but they dislike the idea that the product should serve the audience. They want to convert people to Linux, but woe to anyone who then asks for a functioning software installer and a good help file. That person is almost certain to hear something like, "Hey, it's free software made by volunteers, Swifty. Why don't you volunteer to write the help file?" Even finished software is a rare bird on Linux. The programs are mostly like the cars that some teenagers like to have on their front lawns: It's got a corvette engine, scoops, a jazzed up trannie.... Does it run? Well, no. But it will someday. I'm still working on it.
It's true that I haven't tried Linux for awhile. I think I have Suse 12.0 installed. (As I recall, Suse is on a 6 month release cycle, with .5 release numbers. One year, v. 13, would have been when my install of Suse 12 became obsolete and unsupported. The current version minus 12 would represent how many years ago I installed it.) But not long ago some evangelists rode through one of the Windows groups and I mentioned the same minimal requirements I had in mind. The responses essentially boiled down to: If you don't want to live in console Windows then you're wrong, an idiot, and a detestable computer "newbie". No one ever did come up with a clear, easy-to-use firewall that provides per-process/per-port blocking in and out. There are several free ones on Windows. The Linux evangelists, again, just made excuses: Linux is safe and pure, so you don't need outbound firewall functionality.
I also write software. And I do web design. And I do a bit of office work -- writing contracts, estimates, etc. And I edit photos in Paint Shop Pro. Before I bought PSP16 I tried the latest GIMP, 2.8. After I managed to set up the help, which was a funky, separate install, I was ready to try it out. It was usable. It was not good. I wrote my HTML editor myself and also use it for VBScript. All of that would only work through WINE. And I wouldn't be able to test pages in IE. Visual Studio 6, which I still use and which still compiles software in VB6 and VC6, supported on virtually all Windows systems, would probably not transfer at all. VS6 came out in '98 and the software I can write with it is still arguably the most widely supported on Windows. Meanwhile, my relatively recent Suse test system is a dinosaur. If I tried to install anything on it now I'd be stuck for the rest of the day running command lines to install library updates.
If I was lucky I might be able to automate that through a software library online. But that presents another Linux problem: In Suse 12 it was already starting to make my decisions for me. I don't want the OS deciding how to do things and going online by itself. When I first tried Linux it was at least fun as a project. I thought of Linux as a car kit, while Windows was like a normal car that one could work on and Mac was like a limited-functionality car with the hood welded shut. Linux now seems to be going straight to the Mac model, not stopping in the middle at all. What's always been fun about Windows is that it can do nearly anything because of the vast software available, and it's just about as customizable as anyone could want. One can tinker with it on any level that one wants to get involved at, and there are plenty of docs to help. With Windows now headed for lockdown it looks like the landscape may end up being populated by 3 restrictive, spyware systems; all of them expecting to call home freely. (I think I read somewhere recently that Ubuntu is starting to show ads.)
So, for me, I'd want to see Linux first get cleaned up, with modern conveniences like dialogues to replace "console Hell". Then I'd also want to see it *not* treat the users like "consumers". I haven't given up hope of that happening. But I've been hoping since about 2000, so I'm not on the edge of my seat about it. :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 01/24/2015 10:05 AM, Mayayana wrote:

Linux is made by intelligent people for intelligent people. The typical democrat will prolly wanna stick with the free Winblows10.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Can't imagine what you are going on about.
First you are magically tuned into the developers motives and you have reached an unlikely conclusion. You think someone has something to gain by creating a less than useful product. On it's face, that conclusion is ridiculous.
Second, all the major distros have had fully graphical installers for ages. Just click a couple of buttons and install the software. Or uninstall it. Imagine that.
Don't like typing in complex commands like:
yum install gimp
Go ahead, bring up the graphical installer. Select install, click on multimedia tools, click on Gimp. If that floats your boat, that has been working for years.
So, anyone else reading Mayayana's rants, I suggest you take them with a grain of salt. And remember, you don't even have to install Linux on your hard disk to see what it runs like. You can burn a CD or create a boot USB stick. No change to your OS at all, all you do is boot up and run.
--
Dan Espen

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| Second, all the major distros have had fully graphical | installers for ages.
I never said otherwise. You're twisting my words. When I installed Red Hat 4 in 1999 it had a graphical installer. That didn't make it a useful OS. What I said was that it's difficult to go far in Linux without needing to open a console window, and that such primitive functionality should not be required.
| Go ahead, bring up the graphical installer. | Select install, click on multimedia tools, click on Gimp. | If that floats your boat, that has been working for years.
Again, your not being entirely straight. You're talking about being able to install GIMP from a stored selection of installers that come with a Linux distribution. (Most of which are usually outdated.)
I did use the graphical installer for GIMP 2.8 on Windows. First I had to hunt down the Windows version. The GIMP people didn't actually take responsibility for that installer. Now they do at least have it linked from their site, but one has to understand FTP indices to get it. Do you really think the average graphic artist knows how to navigate the FTP site and understand the difference between a .exe and a .tar.gz?
Then there's the help. A different install, from a different FTP site. Hopefully it integrates. Actually I don't remember now whether the help actually worked once it was installed. It may have.
I tried GIMP mainly because I'd heard it was finally going to have MDI design. (Tool windows docking in a parent window, rather than floating all over the Desktop.) It turned out the MDI functionality was less than impressive.
You don't seem to understand just how far all those little quirks are from the functionality that has been taken for granted in Windows for decades. Many people can't find a downloaded file after they download it.
| | So, anyone else reading Mayayana's rants, I suggest you take them | with a grain of salt.
I'd suggest that, too. :) I'm just trying to provide the caveats that are missing from the evangelist's sales pitches. By all means, try Linux. Just don't go spending time or money with the expectation that you'll end up smiling and Windows-free, with no cost, in "a couple of hours". Be prepared to "put on your work clothes".
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Maybe in 1999 you had to do that. Do you think things might have changed a bit since then?

What?
The installer (you only need one), goes to the repository. You get the latest fully tested version.

Are you now criticizing Linux because you had to use t tar.gz file on Windows?

Once again, Windows. On Linux, just click on gimp-help. Separate help is a good thing. I find web searches much more effective than local documentation.

Looks fine to me. But then I don't walk around with the delusion that the Gimp developers actually want their package to be hard to use.

After you download a package the menus are updated to include an entry for the package. Why would you be looking around for any files?
How do you determine which files a Windows installer has created? On Linux I have command line tools that tell me which files are in a package. I don't know (or care) whether the installer GUI can show the same information.
--
Dan Espen

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mayayana wrote:

I never implied Linux was perfect. If the tools you prefer to use are only available on Windows, stick with Windows. Many graphics people cut their teeth on Apple.I've never owned or used an Apple computer. I don't have anything against them but they've never filled my needs.
What else would someone do on Linux? Perhaps respond to posts in this newsgroup using KNode. Maybe handle their email with KMail. Or browse the web with Firefox, CHrome, Konqueror or several other browsers. Read downloaded comics with Gwenview. I don't have the need to do Office type stuff and haven't figured out how to use a spreadsheet since they were loading SuperCalc on CP/M machines, but if that fluffs your fur, there's LibreOffice.
Oh, and there's Eclispse and Googles new Android Studio that are cross platform but that's back to programming I guess. Then there's the Banshee media player, among others. Reading eBooks with FBReader, or converting them to different formats with Caliber. Then I can sideload them into my Kindle if I want. I generally use the Dolphin file manager. It sort of resembles Explorer.
Funny thing is I fire all these off from a Start menu, never touch a console window. It's obvious you've never put more than 5 minutes into a Linux system so use Windows and prosper. I feel your pain with VS 6.0. I've got to use it to build one legacy application that's heavily dependent on MFC 4.0 but I'm going to drown that peice of crap one of these days.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Simple questions like that are answered at the Wine site:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iIdf69
Looks like one version works another has problems.
--
Dan Espen

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Site Timeline

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.