Wind mill

Page 2 of 3  


I'm considering the possibility that that low % is because of either contracts specifying how much has to be bought from other sources, or competitive prices of other sources.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Han wrote:

8-yr averages are all very similar showing the patterns consistent w/ weather. Feb and Aug are both high demand months in cold and hot weather, respectively. Given the consistency over that long an operational period, I'm convinced it is at significantly production-limited by lack of wind.
I've not been able to get information from the producer about the limitation they're having in selling product; they've been unwilling to share same. And, unfortunately, there's no publicly available data site for windspeed information in a convenient-enough format I've gone to the trouble to try to correlate with. The closest NWS official recording station is Dodge City which is 30+ miles but it would still be of some interest as country out here is quite open and long-term trends would be of at least corroborating if not conclusive. But, the download formats are either too detailed or too coarse to be practical given my limitations with dialup and access to have been worth the effort, at least so far. I'd surely like to have access to the site data, but they're not amenable to sharing anything at all, unfortunately. :(
IMO, if that _IS_ the issue, that's damning evidence prima facie that they only exist owing to government mandates and cost-share/subsidies and that it is _NOT_ a cost-effective solution.
If you're interested and would like to see the data (it is interesting to see), e-mail me off list and I'll forward the spreadsheets I've prepared. bozarth dot d is the gmail addy; let me know if you do as I don't check that address on a regular basis.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
dpb wrote:

I looked again at the possibilities of finding some correlate-able wind data...wunderground.com has modified their history pages some since last time and now it's at feasible to get something that has at least some usefulness w/o _too_ much effort...
So far I've downloaded two years of data from the NWS DDC (Dodge City, KS) archives and computed monthly averages of the daily average windspeeds and added those to the plots of monthly production for the two years. As I suspected, there's a fair similarity in the overall shape of the data during the year reflecting the cyclic nature of the wind speed during the year and the overall output is definitely positively correlated with the average wind speed.
To do this really well one would need the actual wind speed at the site and be able to do weighted averages over the shorter intervals reflecting the dynamics of the rotor response to variations in speed, but even at this bulk level it's pretty obvious that months with lower average wind speeds tend to have lower net generation. (One interesting thing to note is how low average wind speeds are even here owing to the diurnal cycle that when sun goes down, often so does the wind...)
It'll take a couple more days to actually do the full 8 years of data I've already tabulated for generation and I've not done 2010 yet, either. Not sure if that data is yet available at the EIA site; takes them a while to correlate and publish.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Han wrote:

Gray County is operated by NextEra Energy (renamed Florida P&L subsidiary formerly FPL Energy LLC) which is a generation-only outfit. So, they're not buying power elsewhere; their objective would be to sell everything they can make.
<http://www.nexteraenergyresources.com/content/where/portfolio/pdf/graycounty.pdf
I'm pretty heavily involved w/ our local electric co-op; Dad was founding member and on board 50 years; we've kept on since returned to farm after previous career in engineering mostly w/ the electric utilities (starting in nukes w/ B&W then going into consulting ending up mostly in support of fossil).
Anyway, Sunflower, the generation co-op for western distribution co-ops in the state has agreement to buy 50 MW from Gray County but it's in fulfillment of requirement to have "green" power percentages as decreed by legislation (and to a lesser extent for the publicity) but otherwise wouldn't on a purely economic evaluation of best value to members. It costs us a minimum of 25% more/kW to buy it than does equivalent power from the shares from conventional generation and nearly double what our share from Wolf Creek Nuclear does.
It isn't a logical choice other than for reasons other than economic (unless, of course, one is one of those _very_ few landowners getting royalties or the generating companies getting the tax incentives that subsidize the construction and the subsequent revenue that's mandated they have a market for).
Who knows, _eventually_ somebody may figure out how to both make the wind blow 24/7 and also increase the energy density but until then for "clean" power and to have a notable effect on reduction of C emissions, nuclear baseload generation has all current alternatives beat hands down. (I've a comparative graph of the Wolf Creek availability over the same time frame also on the above-mentioned spreadsheet).
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<stuff snipped>

Yes, windmills kill a lot of birds, but there are also a lot of birds that DON'T fly into windmills (and windows). What will eventually happen is that the birds that die hitting windmills will not reproduce but the ones that live will. Eventually, the surviving birds (which now have more food and habitat available as a result of reduced competition) will reproduce and in general, the species will now consist of individuals that are smart enough to avoid the hazard of windmills. Whether they do it by sound, smell, sight or ESP doesn't matter. It's just how evolution works. Sometimes threats are so serious that almost entire populations die out but the few remaining individuals with resistance or avoidance abilities survive and the population levels usually return to whatever the habitat supports. Those individuals will pass whatever traits that enabled them to survive to their offspring.
I was at an immunlogy conference with my MD friend once and the speaker said that humans have allergies and runny noses as a result of having survived plagues and epidemics where a "positive flow" respiratory system expelled the germs and parasites that killed other, drier nosed individuals. So when you're suffering with red eyes and a runny nose in the spring or fall, remember, that inconvenience to you now probably saved your great great great great great great great great great great grandmother from dying from the plague or some other type of disease.
Blood antibodies work in much the same way, "remembering" diseases that you or your ancestors have encountered. It's why many of the native Americans (both N. and S.) died off by the tens of thousands when they first became exposed to diseases of the European continent.
The bottom line is "survival of the fittest" and birds now have to include "ability to avoid windmills" in their fitness.
-- Bobby G.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I agree but that is a tough assignment for the birds ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Sometimes, when I can't sleep at night, I think about all the travails my ancestors had to survive in order for me to lie there in bed, safe but sleepless. Life is unfortunately no different for the birds. I remember my teary-eyed grandfather telling me how his grandfather had to dig his own grave before he was shot to death by the Red Shirts in Italy. We've got it sooooo easy now.
-- Bobby G.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<...snipped...>

By that theory passenger pigeons should have evolved tha capability to avoid hunters.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Different situation entirely. PP's nested in huge flocks that made them easy prey for hunters. What had been a positive adaptation that protected them from their previous natural predators became a serious liability when humans arrived. PP's were killed by the tens of thousands because their huge flocks (like the huge herds of buffalo) made it very easy for humans to slaughter them en masse. Windmills pose no such threat as they don't kill entire flocks of 50 to 200 thousand individuals they way human hunters did. Windmills represent exactly the kind of threat that evolution can deal with. Some birds obviously DON'T fly into windmills or windows and that allows natural selection to operate. Crows don't fly into windows (that I know of) and eat the dead birds that do. Sometimes, you need brain power to survive.
Slaughtering all the individuals means no one survives, neither the fittest nor the weakest. In this case, evolution was "saying" congregating in huge flocks was once a survival mechanism but became a liability as new threats evolved.
Take the dodo, for example. Limited population, overwhelming threat. The dodo evolved in isolation from significant predators and had no fear of humans and could not fly, making it easy prey for humans. Humans also brought hitherto unknown predators like rats, pigs, dogs and cats whose sudden introduction overwhelmed the dodo.
Windmills will never be so ubiquitous that they would be capable of killing all birds. Windows, as others have pointed out, have not managed to extinct the house wren, and they're far more common than windmills. Besides, the dodo wasn't much of a bird in that it couldn't fly. Nor could it escape the island of Mauritius to find a new, less dangerous habitat. Their loss of flying ability was a negative adaptation and as such, they paid the price for giving up their wings: Extinction.
There's a reason we're the top predators on the planet. We're very good at predation on a large scale, even upon ourselves. Yet creatures like the cockroach and the rat have resisted everything we've thrown at them. Perhaps it's because they don't congregate into huge swarms like the PP's did or don't approach humans fearlessly (and fatally), like the dodo did.
-- Bobby G.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The problem with that theory is the timeframe. Do your really expect windmills to be around for the next 50,000+ years? Windmills will be long gone before any species evolves to deal with them.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The problem with that theory is the timeframe. Do your really expect windmills to be around for the next 50,000+ years? Windmills will be long gone before any species evolves to deal with them. =========================================== The theory is actually quite sound. It's been proven by studies on the Galapagos islands that birds can change their beak shapes in just a few years to adapt to changing food sources:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/090201_darwinday
"For more than 30 years, Biologists Peter and Rosemary Grant, along with their colleagues and students, have been carefully documenting the ups and downs of the finches on the Galapagos island of Daphne Major. Even in this relatively short amount of time, they have directly observed the evolution of body size, beak size, and beak shape in response to changing ecological conditions, such as droughts and El Nino events (which both change the proportions of different sorts of seeds available for food) and the invasion of another finch species that competes with locals for food."
Evolution appears to operate far more quickly than anyone, even Darwin, suspected. I'd guess with their short lifespans, windmill avoiding birds are evolving as I write this. Dude, you need to watch more Discovery channel! (-:
In the cosmic scheme of things, CFL's with mercury are going to do way more damage to more species (including man) than windmills ever will. And no, that "offset" BS about how putting mercury in CFL's reduces mercury from power plants doesn't fly with me. It's just power company propaganda to avoid the expense of doing the *right* thing - scrubbing mercury out of coal plant smokestacks. It's amazing what the Big Business PR machine will get people to believe.
Hopefully LEDs will soon send CFL's into extinction where they deserve to be along with the teeny bit of poison contained in each bulb. Funny how proponents emphasize how small an amount that is but not that it's in billions of light bulbs. Studies are already finding increasing amounts of mercury in the bottom of trash trucks and landfills. That's to be expected in a nation where recycling hazardous waste is haphazard at best and the lifespan of CFLs has been incredibly exaggerated. If they really lasted 10 years, where's the sudden uptick in mercury found at transfer stations and landfills coming from?
-- Bobby G.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/4/2011 11:13 AM, LSMFT wrote:

Aside from placing any structure too near, streams are in the lowest land around (that old water running downhill bit), not a good location for a windmill.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

sometimes,valleys channel winds.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
?

Probably restrictions on building anything close to a stream or wetlands.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There are a number of obstructions you may encounter: leaking grease, killing bats, descecrating a riparian zone, disturbing nesting birds. But your biggest problem is going to be dealing with the North American Nimby. If you want really have fun, claim it's a wifi antenna with decorative fan. Or a SmartMeter, again, with decorative fan.
m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Feb 5, 2:44am, snipped-for-privacy@sonic.net (Fake ID) wrote:

There are certainly some potentially legitimate issues locating a windmill or any other structure for that matter, close to a stream. In many cases areas immediately adjacent to streams are protected and you can't build on them.
However, when it comes to windmills, they are a good example of the empty promises of the tree huggers. One of their cherished answers to meeting our energy needs is wind power. Yet, in EVERY case I've heard of, as soon as someone actually proposes to build some of them, the same environmental extremists show up with a long, long list of how harmful it will be to the environment..... The birds, the noise, the fish, where the power lines will go......
In many cases, they further hide their true intentions by demanding endless study and review, only to have that process repeat itself so that nothing ever gets built. Which is exactly what they want.
One of the most recent examples of this kind of stupidity is here in NJ. Gas companies want to build an offshore liquified natural gas dock so that tankers can unload 13 miles out at sea off central NJ A pipeline would run back to land. The usual suspects are all on board opposing that too. One of the principle complaints, even bought into by some ignorant politicians, is that it could foul the beaches. WTF? It's LNG, not oil. And which would you rather have? That tanker off loading 13 miles at sea, or coming into NY harbor?
Here's a project that brings energy and jobs, and as usual, it will go nowhere. Even Christy is against it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote in
<snip>

Let's not start talking about Christie (spelling?). He's a populist rabblerouser who will not get done what needs to be done (such as more public transportation).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

30g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
Spoken like a rabblerouser who doesn't live here. He's already got the budget under control by cutting spending, which is EXACTLY what needs to be done. Just wait until all the union contracts come up for renegotiation.....
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote in

I have lived in Bergen county for the past 12+ years. OK, my daughter and son-in-law are high school teachers in South Orange and Paterson. Our town is now having trouble making ends meet, as are many towns. I agree that there are many things where cuts eed to be made, not the least of them pensions calculated on the amount of overtime in the last years of employment. And if you would want your kids being taught by 35K/year teachers and have the legislators and administration give money to their friends, yes, then I'm a rabble rouser.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If only it were so.... In fact, NJ teachers are the third highest paid in the country, averaging $56,600.
http://www.employmentspot.com/employment-articles/teacher-salaries-by-state /
"The state with the highest average teacher salary was Connecticut, at $57,760. California was a very close second, where the average teacher salary is $57,604. New Jersey teachers make approximately $56,635 per year. "
To find teachers making $35K, you'd have to go to Miami. And do you think there is a big difference in the quality of education in NJ versus Miami?
That's the big mistake some people make, which the politicians feed on and how govt grows and spending goes out of control. They think that money is the solution to every problem. In NJ, the districts where we've poured huge amounts of money, eg Camden, Newark, Asbury Park, still have the worst track records and little or no improvement. Those districts are gettting 2X per student what the average district in NJ spends to educate their children. And I don't know about you, but $57K a year for a job where you have 2 1/2 months off every summer, plus more holidays than any other job isn't a bad deal.
I agree the bloated pensions are a problem, but it's a difficult one that isn't going to be easy. You can change it moving forward, but the real problem is you can't just change pensions that were granted over the last couple decades. GM managed to do it through bankruptcy, which apparently states cannot.
IMO, Christie is the first governor to have the guts to start to take on these issues. He'd be doing a lot more, but with the Dems still in control of the legislature and senate, there is only so much he can do. So far he's reduced spending, balanced the budget, and killed the rail tunnel to nowhere that would have cost us billions.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.