Wind chill and frozen pipes again

[Stormin Mormon]

Caulk is good, and that "great Stuff" foam is also good. I figure any where cold air blows in, hot air has to be blowing out the other side.

[Norminn]

LOL. The point is to keep colder air out....a line of bales all around the perimeter of the home would hold some of the heat lost from pipes and floor inside the space, I presume. With faucets running slowly, that would likely add at least more heat to the space than minus-degree wind blowing through.

When I lived in a house on slab and without much insulation, the prevailing north wind in winter made floors and walls at north end much cooler.

[clare]

My brother skirted his trailer near Huntsville/Parry Sound ontario with 1 inch lumber,sealed with typar (on the inside) and backed with 3 inches of insulation and the temperature under his trailer never got below 42F - even when it is -40 out and blowing up a storm. He is on dry sand. He just installed an outdoor boiler to heat the trailer and his new shop - and running the heat line under the trailer heats the "crawlspace" enough that the floor is warm and the circulator fan on the heat exchanger (in the "furnace" hardly runs. It is an OLD trailer - was 2X3 framed - he built another 2X3 wall inside the living room and added 3 inches of insulation, as well as

6inches or more extra in the roof - the kitchen and bedrooms are still the original 3" walls and standard roof insulation. He is hoping to get the new house built next summer.

[trader4]

Sure

A pipe that is outside and exposed may very well freeze and burst overnight when the windchill is severe, while it might not burst without the windchill. Temperature isn't static. It's typical in many locations for temps to dip down below freezing for some period overnight. If the temperature dips below freezing for a couple of hours, you certainly could have instances where a pipe will freeze and burst with windchill, while it would not without it. That's because windchill affects how fast heat is removed from any object, not just humans.

Wrong. The windchill index was created to reflect that but the effects of windchill extend to any object above ambient temperature.

[krw]

Are these pipes exposed, like the supply line for the trailer? If so, you really need to wrap it with heat tape and insulation. If they're buried in the floor or walls, it's a little harder. In your area you shouldn't be worried about 20F, though.

How fast does it cool down? You can estimate your savings by taking the average of the difference between the outside and inside temperature (minus 10F , or so, for misc heat sources) times the time (divided by the hours in a month, times your bill).

If the average temperature for the month is 30F and you keep the inside at 70F, turning it down to 69F will save about 3%. Turning the temperature down to 68F for half the time will save about the same.

[Vic Smith]

How fast for copper? How fast for galvanized? Pex?

So when there's a windchill of 30F how cold does galvanized pipe feel? What's the correlation with the windchill index? Of course when it's windy there's convective heat transfer. But the numbers used to develop the "windchill index" are based on how human skin "feels" the wind.

[Stormin Mormon]

Today is going to be in the cold end of the spectrum. High near 7F, and cold, well, colder. Reminds me, I've got some cardboard to apply here and there, to help with the cold blast. I mean, draft.

[clare]

Faster for copper than galvanized, and faster for galvanized than PEX because of the difference in heat transfer between the 3 materials.

Galvanized or whatever will never feel colder than ambient - wind or no wind - but it will get down to ambient more quickly in the wind.

[Gordon Shumway]

Now, don't keep sayin' that! Trader4 is gonna start callin' you a liar and all kinds of other stuff too. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Stormin Mormon]

Oh, gosh. Then we'll have people killfiling each other right and left. It will be the wild west, all over again. I got my low slung, tied down filter. Don't make me slap mouse on you, rustler.

[clare]

Trader's called me worse, but unless someone replies to him I won't see his posts.

[Gordon Shumway]

Oh yeah, I'll sick my two cats on yer mouse, you sidewinder!

[Gordon Shumway]

Yup, it's just like stormy predicted. Kill files are flying left and right!

[clare]

Trader's been on my list for months.

[micky]

I've decided that your saying Good grief is reason enough not to reply.

You like insults better than a real discussion, and I don't.

[trader4]

That's right, the rate of heat transfer from a pipe that's above ambient will vary based on the material.

And there is the correlation.

It's not just a "feel". Skin exposed with wind blowing on it is also going to be colder than skin without wind blowing on it. And I've said and agreed that the index was developed for humans. That doesn't mean the effect is not present on other objects that are above ambient and in the wind. The original question that started all this was if one should just use the outside temp or reported windchill numbers when trying to figure out if pipes will freeze. I say both are useful. I'd be more concerned about pipes in a drafty crawlspace freezing when the temp is 25F and the windchill is 5F than I would if the temp was 25F with no windchill.

[trader4]

Is that why I didn't get a Xmas card this year? Figures you'd now start in with this BS. Here I am saying the exact same things you're saying in this thread and you take the opportunity to start in with this crap. BTW, if you'd actually read my posts, you'd have seen that I've been right about this from the beginning and my position is no different than yours. But go ahead, feel free to add more and more people to your "killfile" so you can wander in the wilderness alone.

[trader4]

Yeah, good idea. Focus on that instead of the fact that you have the science wrong.

Good grief is an insult? What you don't like is being told that you're wrong and having it explained to you. Otherwise, you'd be discussing and replying to the two examples I just gave you. Wind removes heat from exposed skin via convection, just like it does from any object that is above ambient temperature. Evaporation is not necessary. The cooling of exposed skin is *not* driven primarily by evaporation, unless you're sweating when it's 15F out. Seems hundreds of millions of years of evolution has figured that out. It's driven by convection, just like using *moving* air through a car radiator works. And BTW, I figured the good grief was appropriate because I've clearly explained this to you ten times now, here and in the other thread. CL told you the same thing.

[Stormin Mormon]

Wed Jan 22, 2014 Weather page says western NY at -4F.

My outdoor thermometer says -5.

Fortunately, I left a faucet dripping last night, and I have water. I'd dare to guess the water bottles in the truck are frozen solid.

[Bob_Villa]

You are totally anal...you think by repeating yourself over and over and over that you win the point. You only wear ppl out of your ranting so then you can feel smug. It's you more than your point that we dislike...just learn how to present it! .02