On May 6, 7:26=A0pm, snipped-for-privacy@toyotamail.com wrote: SNIP
If using the breaker as a switch is ok wrt what gets turned off, a simple solution would be to wire a switch into the circuit as it leaves the panel.
This could be worked into the circuit quite easily. If all the units are on a single breaker....simple enough.
btw here is a link to QO trip curve
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Inrush current (the best results of my internet search) for neon lights is about 3 to 5x higher than "running current". Current of 5x rated breaker current will trip a QO in .6 secs.
Sounds like the inrush to the neons could have tripped the breaker.
Interesting!!!!! Those are some hefty transformers on the neons, at least those old ones were.
As far as using breakers as switches, I used to work for a company that did maintenance for industrial buildings. One of them was a church, and they used the breaker panel for turning off all the church lights every day. In fact they taped the breakers that were not meant to be turned off (such as the ones to the offices, and ones that had computers or the furnace or AC). I thought that taping them would defeat their ability to trip as needed. The thing is that the church actually had light switches, but they were scattered all over the place, so it was easier to just flip about 8 breakers to turn everything off.
On 5/8/2012 12:37 PM, snipped-for-privacy@toyotamail.com wrote: ...
Other than your count is about six low, you must have been here. Funny, I don't remember seeing you on Sunday mornings. :)
And no, the taping doesn't affect trip; the handle doesn't need to move externally for the breaker to trip (and the tape isn't strong enough or have enough grip to stop it anyway); it just serves as an indicator of the "noninterruptible" circuits.
Back in the late 70s I worked in a game arcade. I opened the business about= 4 PM and closed it around 11 PM . The owner had told me to shut down each= machine individually and dont use the breaker. I didn't listen to him and= started just shutting off the breakers(2 of them) and this worked for a wh= ile then one breaker would pop once in a while but come back up if I reset = it. I figure still no big deal and kept on doing it until a couple of weeks= later it didn't reset and had to be replaced. Owner was not happy with me.
Also would just about be willing to bet money the breaker is 15A. The circu= it was probably never intended to have something plugged into every outlet = and have them all come on at once.
AFAIK (and the Cutler-Hammer brochure I downloaded from the above link indicates also) that this UL reqm't only applies to fluorescent lighting loadings???
For commercial buildings like retail or office space, I'm sure they are. I've never bothered to check whether the breakers at the church are rated or not; the frequency of times they get switched is so low and the loadings are limited that I've never worried about it.
This panel was installed in the mid-60s in a wiring upgrade to the original (1920s) building in conjunction w/ an expansion project. AFAIK there's never been a breaker failure in the 50 years since.
In this panel, however, for most circuits there are no switches. A couple of circuits that service entry stairwells, hallways, etc., are switched (and stay on) but the sanctuary lighting and all are not.
As are many commercial building main lighting circuits; there are some switched for ingress/egress purposes but often the bulk is controlled from the panel.
I strongly suspect that is mostly related to how heavy the switching cycle is as well as the switching load. There's two effects; the mechanical mechanism and the possible arc/pitting of the actual contacts afaict. Higher amps are obviously worse for the one; the mechanics of the switch itself are the other and one presumes probably there's some difference there in one intended for specific use as switch as compared to "just" a breaker.
But, my sense is that for small loads and reasonable use the likelihood is that the normal user wouldn't ever notice any difference at all.
From the UL White book: "Circuit breakers marked "SWD" and rated 347 V or less are suitable for switching fluorescent lighting loads on a regular basis at their rated voltage.
"Circuit breakers marked "HID" have been investigated for switching high-intensity discharge lighting loads on a regular basis at their rated voltage.
"Circuit breakers rated 50 A or less and 125/250 V or less are investigated for use with tungsten-filament lamp loads.
"Circuit breakers are tested under overload conditions at six times the rating to cover motor circuit applications and are suitable for use as motor circuit disconnects per Section 430.109 of the NEC.
"Circuit breakers investigated for use with heating, air conditioning and refrigeration equipment comprising multi-motor or combination loads are marked "HACR TYPE," in conjunction with the Listing Mark. Such circuit breakers are suitable for use with heating, air conditioning and refrigerating equipment marked for use with HACR type circuit breakers." end quote
Both incandescent lamps and motors have an inrush/start current of about
6x normal current. Breakers are intended to not trip powering on incandescents.
Contacts can be damaged by arcing when the breaker is opened repeatedly. The old fluorescent ballasts were inductive and caused arcing - hence SWD rating. (I don't think the electronic ballasts arc much on opening.) My guess is HID ballasts are even more inductive and arc more on opening. I don't remember ever seeing a "HID" rating.
I have no idea how "HACR" breakers are different.
A garden variety 20A SquareD breaker I looked at is marked "SWD" and "HACR".
Lightning strike perhaps? I.E. Voltage/current surge probably tripped the Power CO's overload circuits..
The same surge could have tripped the breaker in question. Most video games have power supplies protected by surge suppressor and RF-filters. MOV's protect by shorting out the excess energy.
Thus the transient voltage spike resulted in large current surge which could have tripped the breaker either when power was just about to totally fail, or when it was abruptly restored.
Note: When significant HV circuits are interrupted or re-connected, it's not exactly an instantously process (slow, hundreds of milliseconds), and there is significant arcing involved. Arcing == major source of high frequency voltage spikes.
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