Whole house surge suppressor -- Tytewadd??

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We're moving into a house that has older two-wire ungrounded wiring. Short of the expense of rewiring the entire house, I'd like to make it as safe as possible for people and equipment. I've already put in GFCI outlets in bathrooms, kitchen, garage, outdoor locations. So from a people safety perspective I think that's about as good as we can do, and grounding would not improve that situation.
Now for equipment, I'm thinking about a panel-based whole house surge suppressor, since the lack of grounding will defeat any point-of-use surge suppressors. There seem to be quite a few units available with similar specs: clamping voltages in the 400-500V range, energy dissipation on the order of 1000 joules, maximum current 50,000 amps, <5 ns response. One example is the Intermatic 1G1240R. These seem to generally be described as sufficient for protecting appliances but the vendors still recommend point-of-use surge suppressors for electronic equipment.
There is also a product sold by Tytewadd, which clamps at 130V, maximum current 10,000 amps, and 1.5 ns response. It is specifically advertised as protection for "sensitive equipment". But... it has a total energy dissipation of only 70 joules, far far less than the previous class of units.
Does anyone have experience with the Tytewadd devices? They're not that cheap -- $150. I'm in a generally low-lightning-risk location (Northern California, bay area) so maybe this kind of moderate protection is sufficient. But 70 joules is less than the specs on a rinky dink power strip. Should I save my money, ask an electrician to rewire a couple outlets in key locations, and stick with power strip surge suppressors?
-- Dave
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Whole-house surge suppression is a good idea and that is based on personal experience.
130 volt clamp is too low. 70 joules is too low.
There was no Internet when I installed my first unit and I went to the best electrical supply house in my vicinity and talked to those folks. Now, you can Google this to death.
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Charles Schuler wrote:

I think I can safely say I've googled it to death already. I couldn't find any information on the Tytewadd device except from the manufacturer. Why is a low voltage clamp bad? I'd think that it would be better to clamp as low as possible.
I asked a local electrician about installing a whole house surge suppressor and he said he hadn't heard of them, and I can't find a local supplier that stocks them. I guess that's because we're in a low lightning risk area (we're lucky if we get one or two thunderstorms per year), but it still seems like cheap insurance. On the other hand, if these units are not effective for protecting electronic equipment, then I'm back to square one.
-- Dave
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Here's twelve:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=whole+house+surge&category0 Home Depot and Loews both (sometimes) carry them.
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I think you are mixing up the clamp voltage with maximum continuous voltage:
Typically, the maximum continuous operating voltage is 130 and the UL 1449 surge rating is 400 V.
I recommend this: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Lack of grounding will not "defeat" point of use suppressers. Those suppressers will still act to suppress differential surges on the line between neutral and hot which are most likely to cause damage to the connected device.
Without a ground that can't do anything about common mode surges where the same surge voltage is present on both the hot and neutral however these surges are less likely to damage the connected device unless it has a ground connection like a CATV connection.
Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:

Hmmm. Some surge suppressor power strip vendors specifically say that they offer no protection and no warranty when used in an ungrounded outlet. Are you saying that they can shunt current between hot and neutral in a differential surge? I thought that all surges were shunted to ground?
-- Dave
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

A typical cheap suppresser has three MOVs, one hot to ground, one neutral to ground and one hot to neutral. Obviously the hot to neutral MOV can clamp transients that are differential across the hot and neutral regardless of the presence of a ground connection. Suppressers using gas discharge tubes would be similar.
If the surge is common mode, raising the voltage on both hot and neutral and the device connected has no ground connection anywhere like a CATV connection, then the entire device will jump to the higher potential which should cause no damage. The hot-neutral suppresser would still attempt to clamp any excess imbalance so the device should not see any effective over voltage unless the surge exceeds the suppressers clamping capacity.
As for warranty, certainly the suppresser can't work to it's full design capacity without a ground so they don't want to warranty anything. That doesn't mean that the suppresser will be useless without a ground.
Pete C.
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Common mode surges are a most typical source of electronics damage. Point of use (plug-in) protector would do what already exists inside appliances. Appliance protection is typically so superior that a surge, incapable of damaging that appliance, can still cause a plug-in protector to smoke. This undersized (smoking) protector gets the naive to promote more sales of a so profitable and ineffective product.
Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $20 or $120 as a plug-in protector. Do anything possible to avoid discussing THE most critical component in every protection 'system': earth ground. Amazing how word association (surge protector = surge protection) replaces science to promote myths.
Appreciate further problems with plug-in protectors even 20+ years after UL1449 was created (because this happened so often). Would you put these on a rug or on a desk full of papers? http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?pageU6&parentU4 http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/programs/gen_saf/surgeprotectorfire.htm
Earthing is the most essential component in every protector system. Industry professionals, your telco, AC electric companies, commercial radio and TV broadcasters, ham radio operators, and even Ben Franklin demonstrated this all so necessary 'system' component. Do they install plug-in protectors? Of course not. No earth ground means no effective protection. True 70 years ago. Now essential for homes due to something new - the transistor.
Yes, lack of grounding will not defeat point of use suppressers because those grossly overpriced protectors don't even claim to protect from a typically destructive transient. But then don't take my word for it. Where does it list each type of transient with numbers to define protection? It does not. They hope you will 'assume' it is a complete protection solution. Assuming is what recommends plug-in protectors - myths based only on assumptions that even the manufacturer does not dare to claim.
How to quickly identify an ineffective protector: 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing.
Effective protection earths before transients enter the building - so that transients do not overwhelm protection already inside appliances. Transients that don't enter a building therefore do not find destructive earthing paths everywhere inside that building.
Effective protectors are also sold under names of responsible manufacturers such as Square D, Cutler-Hammer, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, and GE. Effective protector solutions will not be found in Radio Shack, Sears, Staples, Best Buy, K-mart, Office Max, Bed Bath & Beyond, Wal-mart, or the grocery store. How do you know? Where is that all so necessary earthing wire?
Solutions are sold in Lowes, Home Depot, and most any electrical supply house. They have been necessary since the 1970s - when transistors began appearing in homes. Home earthing system must both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements.
Above is installed for secondary protection. Primary protection 'system' should be inspected: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
A 'whole house' protector is protection for about $1 per appliance. Superior solution - and it even costs less money. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Pete C. wrote:

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w_tom spake thus:

[lotsa good stuff re:grounding snipped]
'Scuse me just a second, but even though the O.P. referred to their house as having "older two-wire ungrounded wiring", that doesn't mean that their service is *ungrounded*, only that there's not a separate ground and neutral, correct? So their electrical service *is* grounded (should be, anyhow).
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A house using two wire receptacles would be wired for pre-1990 earthing requirements. One need not ground wall receptacles to have superior surge protection. But earthing at the AC mains box must be upgraded to post 1990 code AND meet additional requirements defined in the previous post.
This proper earthing and a 'whole house' protector are less expensive, far more effective, AND enhances household human safety. All this without massive rewiring of a house for three wire receptacles. Notice a critically important parameter for surge protection. That earthing must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'). What is necessary to install an effective 'whole house' protector? That household earthing must be upgraded to meet and to exceed post 1990 NEC code requirements. Superior protection regardless of two wire or three wire receptacles.
Meanwhile, too many homes do not even have earthing that meets those 1960 earthing requirements. Too many see lights working - then assume everything is just fine. One home even exploded because that missing earthing (and other factors) caused electricity to conduct through the gas meter.
Not only is 1960 earthing typically not sufficient for transistor protection. Too often, earthing is compromised as to not provide human protection. That earthing must both meet and 'exceed' post 1990 code requirements. To better appreciate why, learn about 'wire impedance'. Not resistance - impedance.
David Nebenzahl wrote:

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w_tom wrote:

<useless bogus blather deleted>
There you go again with your nonsense.
Care to explain how a common mode surge can damage a device that has no ground connection?
A device with only two electrical connections, hot and neutral, does not care in the least what the voltage on these lines is relative to ground. 0 Volts and 120 Volts or 12,000 Volts and 12,120V look *exactly* the same to the device. Unless the surge is high enough to blow through the insulation of the devices enclosure and arc to ground it is absolutely irrelevant to the health of the device.
Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:

The same way a person that has no ground connection can plug his finger into the hot and not the neutral or ground contact in a socket and still get electrocuted. When you say the device has no ground connection, what you really mean is that it has no *obvious* ground connection.
And even if your device is a hundred million ohms from ground, it may be insulated from ground by something that will punch through when a 5,000 volt common-mode surge hits the device.
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clifto wrote:

I already covered that in another reply. A device with no ground will be unaffected by a common mode surge up to the point of insulation breakdown through for example, the plastic case of the device, the wood table it's on, the carpeting under the table, etc. Basically a very close lightning strike which no affordable protection device will be able to protect against.
Pete C.
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Static electric charges can build across shoes. Touch something such as a door or electronics. How does a circuit conduct electricity from finger to charges beneath those shoes? Many parts in that circuit are not conductive? But at those higher voltages, things not considered conduct become conductive.
Yes, an appliance without a better connection to earth will be less susceptible to damage. This is why some things are damaged whereas others are not. Even wall paint may become a conductor at these voltages. It is not possible to isolate an appliance from destructive transients. Otherwise lightning could not conduct through the best insulator - 3 miles of air.
Why does lightning strike a wooden church steeple? Wood is not a conductor? That is your reasoning. But wood is both a conductor and a connection to earth. Concrete is not a conductor according to your reasoning. But concrete is such a good conductor as to be recommended - Ufer ground.
Protection has always been about earthing transients so that destructive paths are not found through appliances or through wooden church steeples.
You are assuming things not conductive when a building is chock full of conductive paths to earth. Just another reason why every high reliability building earths before transients enter a building. They know better. A transient permitted to electronics can find surprise paths to earth. Best protection which is also less expensive and easy to implement has always been to earth before a transient can enter a building. One properly earthed 'whole house' protector is that effective.
We are not protecting from close lightning strikes. Protection already inside appliances makes that irrelevant. We are protecting against a direct strike to AC mains down the strike which is a direct strike to every household appliance. Only some appliances destructively earth that direct strike. Which ones? You do not know. But that answer is irrelevant if the direct strike is earthed before it enters a building. Some utilities are earthed directly (cable TV and satellite dish). Others require a 'whole house' protector (AC electric and telephone). But that protection will only be as good as a single point earth ground.
Again, this was both a problem and solution well understood way back in the early 1900s. The technology so effective that your telco installed it on every phone line. Why would a telephone operator in a wooden room become a path to earth via non-conductive headphones and a wooden chair? Those become conductive paths to earth through her body. Why did that telephone operator not remove her headset when thunderstorms approached? Even long before WWII, single point earthing was well proven protection. The need for earthing has been that well understood for that long. Otherwise lightning could find a path to earth through that operator. If Pete C's reasoning was correct, the operator was never at risk. Telcos knew better. Even those non-conductive headphone and wooden chair could become a conductive and harmful path to earth.
Protection is about earthing before transients can enter a building. One 'whole house' protector is defined by the quality of its earthing.
Pete C. wrote:

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Woof, talk about making it up as you go! You've neglected to consider any of the actual elements that appear to cause wood to conduct, etc.. You've completely ignored the real components of impedance in the presence of humidity, chemicals, and any material you mentioned. You look pretty bad with statements such as these becuase as stated they are incorrect.
w_tom wrote:

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Pete C. wrote:

Actually, switch gaps usually get jumped first.
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L Ectro wrote:

Example:
A common mode surge comes in along the 2 wire power cord to line lump powering a laptop computer sitting on a wooden table. The laptop has no connections to any other device i.e. WiFi network. Unless the surge is of a large enough magnitutde to punch through the insulation of the devices in question there should be no damage.
Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:

temporarily into conductive material) is what surges do. Again, appliances already contain any protection that will work on their power cord. But a destructive surge creates conductive paths through items (such as the wooden tabletop or church steeple) normally not considered conductive.
Another classic example is a dialup modem. How are they damaged? A most typical path goes into computer on AC mains, through modem via its off-hook relay, then out to earth ground via telephone line. How does it make a conductive path to a galvanically isolated phone line? Surge creates a conductive path from relay's coil, across an isolation barrier, to relay's wiper. IOW destructive surges are destructive because they create conductive paths through non-conductive material.
So what is a building owner to do? The building is chock full of potentially conductive paths to earth ... which is why protection must earth before transients can enter that building.
A computer connected only to AC mains and using WiFi is less likely to be damaged - just like the TV adjacent to a VCR might not be damaged when VCR is destroyed.
Not only is earthing essential - so that protection inside that laptop is not damaged. The protection is layered. A 'whole house' protector earthed by a building electrode is secondary protection. Primary protection must also be inspected: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Surge protection is not installed for every transient. Protection inside all appliances makes most all transients irrelevant - whether laptop uses WiFi or phone line. But a destructive transient that would otherwise punch through such protection is why effective protectors are installed. Such surges occur typically once every seven years - a number that can vary significantly even within a same town. We earth a 'whole house' protector so that the destructive surge does not punch through insulation - protection that exists in all electronics.
Anything that a 'plug-in' protector would accomplish is already inside electronics. Protection that can be overwhelmed by punching through insulation. Just another reason why money spent on a plug-in protector is better spent to enhance earthing for a 'whole house' protector.
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w_tom wrote:

are substantially converted to transverse mode by the N-G bond in US services.)

receptacles at about 6000V, 6000V will conduct through the table top plus laptop insulation?

think?
are usually installed inside buildings.

it lacks "a short and essential earthing connection".
And the IEEE and NIST do not agree with your rants on plug-in surge suppressors.
-- bud--
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