If you look back over the last week or 2 you'll see I had posts
regarding problems with my new A/C and furnace that were installed a few
months before I bought a 40 year old house.
It turns out that all the problems I had with the A/C and furnace were
all a result of the HVAC guys not knowing what they were doing. I have
now confirmed it rather than it being a hunch.
Besides the fact that the HVAC guys didn't test the A/C when they
installed it (I don't care if it was Fall/Winter, you still test), they
hooked up the condensate line for the A/C (from the furnace) into the
*output* line of my sump pump. I have 2 lines, both are output, from my
sump pump which are used for varying water depths. They hooked up the
condensate line to the output line that is used as the backup to the
primary one. So when the water got too high for the primary pump to
handle it the secondary pump kicked in and pumped the water out.
Unfortunately water was then pumped into the condensate line thus
blocking it and possibly forcing water into the furnace. Condensation
would back up inside the furnace when I would run the A/C. This happened
twice and I called the HVAC guy twice to try to figure out what was
going on (2nd time caused the circuit board to be fried). He blamed it
on the sump pump not working at all. After the 3rd time of having water
drip from places it shouldn't drip from and forming a large puddle, I
called the people who installed the pump. Upon seeing how the pipes were
running they immediately knew the problem and proceeded to re-route the
condensate line directly into the sump well rather than into an output
line. Luckily they didn't charge me.
Now my A/C works w/o making water go everywhere after some time running.
However since it took a while to diagnose the problem I've had water in
the finished area of my basement at least twice. I have minor
discoloration in the paint on the opposite side of the wall that is
about 6 inches from the one side of the furnace. The discoloration goes
up about 2 feet from the baseboard. On that same wall, there has been
mold growing on the baseboard as well as the wall itself. On the side of
that wall that faces the utility room you can see mold on the 2x4 that
runs along the floor that all the wall studs connect into. I've been
treating the finished side of the wall with bleach/water to get rid of
the mold on the baseboard and painted wall but it is not gone yet. THe
carpet was also wet. Luckily the carpet seems to be doing okay. I have
yet to get the mold to stop coming back but I'm working on it. In the
meantime, the water/bleach combo has removed some paint from my
baseboards on two walls so they will need repainted and possibly treated
to ensure the mold doesn't come back.
After that long winded explanation, the question I have is whether
anyone is liable for the water and mold problems? Is the HVAC company
liable or the home inspector or no one?
The home inspector is someone I had inspect a home I almost purchased
last year but after his report I passed on it. The sellers of my house
used the same inspector and he inspected this house when they bought it
and offered to come back for me at no charge. I agreed but he only did
spot-checks when he was here for me because the sellers had installed
all new equipment and addressed the major issues with the house.
However, he missed the A/C problem and also the incorrect connection of
the furnace condensate line to the sump pump. Had I remembered the A/C
wasn't here when he inspected it the first time I would have made sure
he inspected it.
I have yet to call the HVAC company to let them know that it was their
fault for all my problems. It was only Friday that the sump pump guys
were here to fix everything. I'm dying to tell the HVAC company though
that it was their fault the entire time. I'm not going to call them
though until I determine whether they could be held liable for my
mold/water problems because I'd bring that up in the same conversation.
What do you guys think? Sorry for any extraneous information.
I'd suggest the lowest level intensity first. Call the AC
company, and tell them what happened. Be prepared, in case
they ask "what would you like us to do". Your prepared
answer may include mold damage, paint, etc.
Save the attorney for if they try stall and delay tactics.
If you go from zero to attorney, they may be resistant to
feeling forced or pressured.
*Move on and get over it. Home inspectors are not qualified to check every
aspect of a home's construction. Some are not qualified period. You would
have been better off calling in the different trades to have a look.
If you owe the HVAC company let them fight for their money. If not then
call it an educational expense. You will never use them again, you will bad
mouth them at every opportunity, and they will never get a recommendation
from you. If it will make you feel better write them a letter telling them
so. Include the bill from the sump pump guy and ask for reimbursement. Say
you want them to pay for mold remediation.
Yes you can find an attorney who will take your money upfront and drag it
out for months or years and in the end you still won't have satisfaction.
I was using the guy who had installed the unit and he wasn't charging me
for anything at all yet, especially since the first visit he knew was
due to his guys not properly finishing the job.
The sump pump guy didn't charge me anything either. So far the only
thing I'll be out will be the money it takes to repaint some baseboards
and the wall. It could get as ugly as removing drywall and studs though
and replacing them before I paint. That's assuming I can fix the mold
issue on my own.
I don't think the job warrants paying for an attorney. I guess I'll call
the HVAC company and let them know what the problem was and base the
rest of my conversation on what they say. I'm expecting to have to chalk
it up to the woes of home ownership. The people who have been involved
were not of my choosing so it wasn't like I made bad choices. They were
all hired by the sellers of the house to do the work.
As far as the last person's statements regarding testing in the winter,
maybe there are limitations to when you can test an AC unit. Either way
though the guys didn't finish the job (testing the AC would have only
proven that to them) and I wasn't told they would have to come back. I
could have been out much more if the circuit board fried from the
incorrect routing of the condensate line hadn't been covered under warranty.
thanks for all the input.
Do you test a new AC in winter? Im no AC pro but I have heard running
the outside compressor below a certain temp can damage it, and it may
be as high as 60f. If it was installled in winter maybe they meant to
come back but forgot, was this mentioned to you? The sump was
careless, but what are you out in damage. Not much. Im my town and I
bet yours a permit is suposed to be pulled for work like this, which
im sure was not. The reality of the benefit of getting permits is not
well understood by most. Getting a permit gets you a free inspection
of your work by a pro to hopefully catch screw ups like these before
you make the final payment. Sure the guy was a hack, but look at it
another way, not getting a permit screwed you. Next job, pull a permit
yourself and get the job inspected. Put in the contract, "final
payment due after it passes inspection." Im just a HO , but most any
job I hire out I can find a fault with. Id say its a learning
experiance for you.
I find it amazing the number of people who purchase/own a house and don't
know a thing about how it is built nor how it operates and have to hire out
every little thing, and then get stung because the contractor screws up and
the home owner has no clue that he did screw up.
It has been said that one should take a course before marriage and before
having a child, but it appears that many people should take a course before
they own a house. Either that or they should stay renting where they can
call the super or whatever, everytime something needs to get fixed or worked
You need Judge Judy. What is the monetary damages? An attorney can get
this fixed, but the cure may cost more than the damages. Small claims court
is an option.
I don't trust home inspectors. That said, I don't think many would have
caught this. They would look at the drain line and say "yep, condensate
drain is hooked up, OK" and move on. I'm not sure the HVAC guys actually
understood the sump setup with two pumps, but perhaps they should have
I'd put together a list of cost, outline the problem, take a few photos, and
them present it to the HVAC guys. They may pay, offer a portion, or tell
you where to go. Then you can decide the next step to take. They may have
liability coverage to handle it all. Don't approach this as a raving
lunatic consumer, but rather as a business person with a problem. Present
the problem, show the solution, request damages.
On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:36:16 -0400, against all advice, something
I Am Not A Lawyer. But, you bought a building, and if it's
anything like buying a used car, you bought it As Is.
Unless you were denied opportunity to inspect the property before
purchase, and were given Promises & Warrantees, the problems are
Don\'t worry about people stealing an idea. If it\'s original, you will
have to ram it down their throats.
I thought about that too Steve but I think that would only be the logic
to use if I were trying to determine whether the sellers are liable or
not. I don't consider them to be liable even though they are the people
who hired these other people. These other people should have known what
they were doing, IMO.
The good news is that you are not out much in directly measurable $$
$. Assuming you can fix the small mold area and water damage
yourself, the only direct costs you have would be the materials
involved. On the other hand, if you need to get a contractor in to
take care of the mold, fix the drywall, paint, etc, then that would be
a more substantial amount of money you would actually be out. I know
you are out a lot in time and aggravation, but courts don't award
money for that in these cases.
If you want to recover that money, I'd document everything, including
taking pictures and getting a written report from the guy who
identified and fixed the incorrect sump pump connection. Send copies
of all the bills to the HVAC company and tell them you expect them to
pay for it. Being a modest sum, it's very possible they will just
pay it. If not, then you have the option of suing in small claims
court, which is perfectly suited to this kind of case. I'd sue all
3 parties: the HVAC company, the sellers, and the home inspector.
As someone else pointed out, it's not clear that you have standing to
sue the HVAC company, but clearly the seller, who had a contract with
them does. Let the judge figure it out. Fixing the guys wagon
could cost you some time and a small filing fee, but it might be worth
it in satisfaction, especially if they tell you to piss off when you
send them a bill for $150.
Also, the home inspector was negligent. They usually have all kinds
of fine print that lets them off the hook. But clearly to me, if this
guy did what you say he did, which is skip essential parts of the
inspection, ie HVAC, simply because they are new, then he bears
responsibility as well. Just because something is new, doesn't mean
it wasn't installed incorrectly or already has a problem.
It's amazing that an HVAC contractor could be so stupid as to connect
a condensate drain to the sump pump discharge line. Especially
since there isn't a need to do so. They could have just let it
discharge into the sump pit. That's what I recently did with one of
mine. It was previously connected to a condensate pump which
failed. I looked around and it was easier and more energy efficient
to just route it into the sump pit. The sump rarely comes on, so the
water just dissipates into the ground.
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