Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank? (2023 Update)

[Alex Gunderson]

I do understand where you're coming from ... but also answer this question.

Say you bought a house, and you were told by all the professionals that the driveway on your property was yours. You've been using said driveway all these years - but - suddenly you find out that the cement company wasn't paid for that driveway by the previous owner. Legally, perhaps, the statute of limitations for liens has passed - but - as you said - deep down - you really know that the cement company wasn't paid - so, what do you do? Do you pay him?

Similarly, say that the company that put in the pool heater wasn't paid. Or the one that put in the pool motors. Nowhere in the title did it say that the pool motors weren't yours. The company that put in the pool motors had plenty of time to pick up their motors. But they didn't. And you always thought they were "your" pool motors. Now, you find out, years later, that the pool motors weren't fully paid for. What do you do? You, of course, would give back those motors and the pool heater. Right?

Lastly, say that the $1,000 built-in beer fridge at the BBQ was used by you for all these years. Again, there is no label on that fridge; you think it's yours by virtue of you buying the house. Let's even say you've had a beer company DELIVER beer almost monthly to "your" beer fridge. Then, again many years later, your neighbor (who has been there all along and KNOWS where you live) suddenly tells you that it's HIS beer fridge that is in your BBQ after all. He even produces a bill of sale that says he bought that beer fridge many years ago. What do you do?

Do you give your neighbor the beer fridge?

[Alex Gunderson]

You'd need more than a dime per mile because it's a felony to transport propane without a hazmat license! :)

By the way, I think *everything* boils down to this:

One key distinction is the fact that propane tanks are considered "personal property" and not "real property":

Another key distinction is the 3-year rule for abandoned property:

Here's a similar problem in Maryland (see posts #34 & #36):

Here's a similar question for California with a complex answer:

[Alex Gunderson]

I do understand your point. But let me state mine with an example.

What would happen if an upside down abandoned car was on your property, stripped to the bones (for arguments sake).

It was an eyesore, but, you bought the property - so you figured it was your abandoned car - so you had the thing towed to the scrap yard.

Now, almost five years later, a neighbor knocks on your door and says that was HIS abandoned car that you sent to the junkyard.

That neighbor knew you owned the house; he knew it was his car; he knew it and he says he lent it to the previous owner, at for $100 a year, so the kids could play on that car.

Now he wants his car back, or worse yet, he wants you to pay him for the $100 that this personal property was worth?

NOTE: This is the kind of reason that the 3 year abandonment statute of limitations exists in the first place.

OK. Put yourself in my shoes. Would you PAY him the $1,000 he says his car was worth?

[trader4]

They did tell him without him asking. He said a service guy was there to hook up a new grill and while there, he looked up the serial # of the tank and told him it was listed as being owned by the previous gas company, and located at his address.

I agree. With the service guy having told him, I'd say if he doesn't hear anything more in the next couple months, he's probably OK for a long time. At some point, something else, eg another service visit, etc might trigger some action. I would think the most they would do is tell him he has to start paying the $15/mth rental fee. At that point, depending on the circumstances, he could offer to buy the 10+ year old tank for a couple hundred bucks.

[Alex Gunderson]

I just got off the phone with the California Secretary of State. 916-653?3516(5=ucc)(4=info)(0=human)

We can search, for free, at their "UCC Connect" site:

We need to search by a wildcard "debtor name" which would be the previous owner of the residence.

If we find a hit, it costs $5 each to obtain the results.

However, they told me the UCC-1 is for companies who buy things from other companies for the purpose of running companies so, non-commercial debtors, such as a homeowner, would rarely, if ever, show up on the UCC search.

So the whole UCC tack may be a red herring in California. :(

They suggested the "county recorder", whatever that is.

I have to run off to work right now - but I'll report back when I have more info.

[trader4]

That's a big assumption and I doubt it's correct. First, it would be very stupid for the previous owner to not call up the gas company and tell them to terminate service. The previous owner could continue to get billed for gas, so it's very likely they did call them up. Second, if they didn't, then why didn't the previous gas company just show up and continue to fill the tank? After they sent a bill or two to the former owner, something would have happened.? It looks more to me like something fell through the cracks at the gas company.

As far as Alex being responsible, I'd say he has some responsibility now, because the service guy from the gas company told him that the tank shows up in their database as belonging to the previous gas company. This is 3 years later. But what exactly do you think he should do? Call up his current company that now has bought out the previous company, so they may own the tank, and force the issue? A representative of the company knows about it. What more is he supposed to do? He's not hiding the tank or lying. For one thing, all we know is what a service tech told him. Presumably that service guy will do whatever it is that he's supposed to do. Maybe he'll hear from the gas company. If he doesn't, I sure wouldn't go forcing the issue either.

And his assertion that it could be abandoned property is a valid issue. It doesn't make Alex a bad person. It's like if a tree on my property that's healthy falls onto my neighbors shed and crushes it during a wind storm. I, like many people, would feel some moral responsibility, since it was my tree. But the law says otherwise. Unless the tree was diseased, dead, etc and I knew about it, etc, then I'm not responsible. The law sets the rules we play by. And if his tank meets the law for abandoned property, then it's his tank now.

What bill? He had no contract with the previous company. The former owner did. If they want to collect past rental fees, they would have to go after the former owner, not Alex. Alex had no say in negotiating or signing that contract. For one thing, it's clear from the thread that Alex would prefer to BUY a tank. If the gas company had presented him with a bill 3 years ago for rental, he could have said, "I want to buy it, how much?" And if he couldn't come to terms with that company, he could have told them, he's switching to another company, etc. You can't enforce a contract where no contract ever existed.

[Alex Gunderson]

I called Debra Bowen, Secretary of State, whose office said they only handle commercial transaction recordings. The Secretary of State's office said I needed to call the County Recorder's office.

Calling the County Recorder was like calling the DMV. Nobody knew anything. Everyone was guessing. I was appalled.

Nonetheless, they told me (after I asked to speak with numerous people) that they've never heard of a propane company filling out paperwork with them for the lease or ownership of a propane tank.

Still, they said the only way to know for sure would be to stop by and do a personal search on their non-Internet computers - so - of course - that's what I'll do.

But, based on my conversations with them, I'm not going to hold my breath that there is any record of the prior transaction with the county.

Do you have any other ideas for whom to ask in the government to see what the typical process might be?

[Kurt Ullman]

Is there a permiting process involved such as at the Building Department or maybe through the fire department?

[trader4]

I think your whole UCC form thing is a red herring. Filing that form gives the party filing it MORE protection. I don't see anything saying that if you don't file it, you relinquish ownership to the property in question. It's just that with a UCC form you have a better claim. Also, not sure a UCC thing applies to a tank rental.

[chaniarts]

not if the house was not lived in, and unless they drove by and checked, they can't tell that.

sure. otherwise car repo's wouldn't be able to occur when it's parked on the driveway.

[chaniarts]

basically it's a rubber diaphragm. no moving parts.

[Alex Gunderson]

Thanks for understanding.

The rules for establishing ownership should be clear, especially for something as common as an above-ground propane tank.

I do have some more information. The company that made the tank is Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, 213-747-7514. They sent me an email stating that the serial number matches a tank sold to a THIRD propane commercial entity.

I called that third entity, and they're still in business (they said they've been in business for 85 years in this area), and they never owned that tank.

Hmmm... makes no sense.

To confirm, the manufacturer told me I should plug in the national registry number into a database at

Apparently, all propane tanks have a six-digit national board number in addition to the serial number of any number of digits.

The manufacturer said California doesn't require this number, but many other states do, so, they put it on all propane tanks they make.

The only problem is I can't find the national board lookup mechanism, and nobody answers their phone in Columbus Ohio: 614.888.8320

So, I'm working the details as we speak.

[Ed Pawlowski]

OK, I see your apple and raise you an orange.

If I was the abandoned car, first thing I would do is ask the property owner about it. Same as I would a propane tank. I don't know your experience in the area of propane, but I have some exposure to it. I know that in "most" cases,the tank belongs to the propane company. Before assuming I would become the owner, I'd inquire.

To answer your question, no, I'd not pay, but yes, I'd gladly give it back if still there. Cars have titles also. Varies from state to state, but here, you could not scrap it unless you showed the title and proof of ownership. Some states you can if the car is XX years old.

In the courts, accepted and normal business practices become a big factor in decisions. Check with a lawyer, I'm not one and can't give legal advice.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Certainly is. OTOH, do you really want to own the tank and potential liability? Depending on condition you may wanto to be rid of it.

[Alex Gunderson]

And, in this case, the tank was sold by the original manufacturer to a THIRD propane company!

I called that third propane company, who has been in business in the area for 85 years. They did NOT ever service my residence!

Of course, they still could have originally owned the tank and sold it to someone but they have no record of owning that tank.

I finally got a human at the

registry public affairs department: National Board Public Affairs Phone: [phone]

They told me there is no way I can search for the datasheet on that tank without establishing a relationship with them, but, they asked me for my national registry code plus the serial number and they said they'd let me know what information is on the registration for original and subsequent owners for that specific tank (plus I can buy the datasheet).

However, they said only the original owner is likely to be on the tank datasheet, unless someone updated their database voluntarily after the fact.

[Alex Gunderson]

What I've established is the following:

• Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, Los Angeles manufactured the tank

• Hanson sold to Suburban, who has no record of my address

• Somehow the Heritage Group presumably lay claim to the tank

• Amerigas bought the Heritage Group (& presumably its assets)

• An Amerigas tech said (last week) the tank was owned by the Heritage Group

• There is no mention in the closing papers either way

• The tank had propane & regulators attached at the time of sale

• After sale, I signed an affidavit stating I owned the tank

• Amerigas inspected the tank and found everything to be sound

• Amerigas has been filling the tank ever since

In addition, it's probable that:

• Propane tanks are personal property (i.e., not real property)

• Personal property is subject to a 3-year abandonment SOL

• There is no serial # registered with the building permit

• There is likely no UCC-1 filed with the Secretary of State

• There probably isn't a lien filed with local County Records

• Ownership is voluntary when registered at the National Board

Homework:

• Wait to hear back from the National Board on ownership

• Run an in-person search at the County Records for liens

• Still waiting to hear back from the title insurance on liens

[Alex Gunderson]

Yes. There is a $250 permit fee, but I spoke to that department and they said they would never put down the serial number of the tank as the owner is responsible and it's not a matter of who owns the tank to them.

[Alex Gunderson]

I trusted the title company to ensure I bought the property free and clear of liens. They certified it was. Who am I to doubt that?

Rest assured that Amerigas asked me before they even came out to inspect the tank, who owned the tank and regulators. I signed an affidavit that I did. There are no markings on the tank otherwise. There is nothing in the closing papers otherwise. The title company said the property was free and clear, mine. There are no liens extant.

Fast forward to today, I called the manufacturer of the tank, Roy E. Hanson Jr. Mfg, who sold the tank to Suburban Propane well before the penultimate owner bought the property. So the tank was initially manufactured and sold to Suburban when a prior owner (prior to the previous one) owned the property.

However, Suburban propane has no records of that tank ever being on the property. Last week, we fortuitously find out that the Amerigas tech states that he believes (based on serial number & address) that the tank was owned by the Heritage Group, who was recently bought (six months ago) by Amerigas.

There is no record of a lien at the County Records that we know of (I will run a personal search though). There is no record of a Uniform Commercial Code registration at the State Department. The title company found no liens (again, I'm waiting for details).

And, most important of all, the gas company (presumably) had a lease with the penultimate owner which allowed them an easement to take a tank they believed was theirs (which they never exercised while the home was under that previous ownership (bearing in mind the home lay vacant for a period of almost a year during the economic downturn).

Seems to me that nobody can prove ownership. What happens then?

[chaniarts]

it doesn't officially exist.

[Alex Gunderson]

Interesting, at least the high pressure regulator is apparently normally owned by the entity that owns the tank.

The high-pressure regulator is painted red.

I have three low-pressure regulators, and they're variously painted brown and gray.

So it's of interest how a pressure regulator got on the lines, if the tank was owned by an individual.

Have any of you bought such a pressure regulator?