If anything ever goes wrong and the neighbors sue your delivery company (wh ich they will, since it's richer than you) that affidavit will be central t o downloading the liability to you. Which is kinda fair, really. I guess yo u could find yourself facing some kind of false-document charge, but only i f some third party came forth with a claim to owning it, which is real unli kely after it blows up.
I presume your insurer has acknowledged its presence. They could forget you mentioned it to them, if it suited them.
I'm increasingly thinking that since (a) there is no branding of any kind o n the tank and (b) whatever company the prior owner used never came to dema nd it back when he quit buying from them, that it actually is a privately o wned tank, and that you really did take ownership of it with the house.
Well, bear in mind that the cost for the tank is less than the cost to fill the tank just once, so, it's not so odd that I'm trying to scope out my options.
I'm pretty convinced, by now, that the tank was not bought by me - but - I'm not sure whether the original owner has forfeited his rights to the tank, by sheer length of abandonment laws.
I'm kind of stumped at this point, because I called the county planning office who said they knew of no registration of propane tank serial numbers with them.
So, I'm actually back to the original question of who owns the tank - only the details have changed.
Either I own the tank because the original owner abandoned it; or, the original owner owns the tank because they originally owned that tank.
I guess I should move that question to a legal group?
You would be money ahead - way ahead - renting one from your current gas company. Depending upon how much you use, they might well charge you no rent; especially if you tell them they can use/have the tank that came with the house.
Yes you can. Go with a new company and they will either continue filling the tank you have or rent you another; in the latter case the owner (not you) of the current tank is supposed to come and het their tank. If they don't you are back in ther situation tanksise that you are now but ther is nothing stopping you from switching companies.
And if anyone ever has the temerity to try to charge you past rent for the existing tank, tell them to take a hike.
Let's recap. You bought the property with a propane tank attached to it. The sales contract says nothing about who owns the tank. You believed at the time that you bought it with the house. You called up the low cost propane supplier and prior to starting filling service, they came out, inspected the tank, and asked you who owned it. You told them you did and signed an affidavit to that effect. That is what you believed at the time.
Now let's pause for a moment. The company actually inspected the tank prior to filling it the first time. They didn't say it was another company's tank. Also, the tank apparently has no company name on it, which some other folks here I believe have said is unusual for a leased tank. I would think so too.
A few years go by. Some tech from the gas company one day tells you that he thinks it's owned by company X, which apparently was the supplier to the previous owner? That company has now been bought by your current supplier. So, if the tank was company X's, it's now the property of your current supplier. The big assumption here is that the tech is right. He could just be talking out his ass. And how does he now know it belonged to company X, when previously the gas company inspected it, asked who owned it, and didn't have a problem when you said you did? Was this tech there some time after the company was bought out? If so, then maybe he referenced a database of serial #'s that now includes company X's tanks, so now it's listed as that company's tank.
But at the end of the day, why do you care? You have a free tank and you've done nothing wrong. If some day your company claims they own the tank, so what? Your position is that you believed it was the property of the owner at the time of sale. That is the truth. If they have a claim for back rental fees, as I see it, it's against the FORMER OWNER. He presumably signed the lease agreement for the tank, not you. You tell the gas company that and to go after him. Even if they go after you, so what? There is a statute of limitations for bringing such a claim. I just checked and for CA for a debt claim, it's 4 years. So, the most they could get is $120 a year times four years, $480. Less if the lease rates were lower in those years.
So, BFD, they may have a claim against the former owner for $480. If they persist in trying to collect from you, offer them $300 to BUY the tank at that point. Or let them take you to court over $480. I doubt they would do it, and IMO, it's unlikely they would win. Even if they take the previous owner to court, who IMO, is more likely responsible, I don't think they would collect more than $100 or so. Why? Because they could have come at any time to pick up the tank after he stopped paying for it. They didn't do that. So maybe a court would give them 6 months worth of rental fees. And the previous owner is likely going to claim he called them up to terminate service, told them the house was sold, etc and he's probably got an excellent case that it's THEIR screw up, not his. The former owner would have to have been pretty dumb to not tell them he's done with their service, because you would be running up a bill in his name.
In short, I think you're hell bent on spending $1500 or more to buy a new tank, when you have no real problem at this point. And at most, you have a POTENTIAL, small problem in the future. What's better? Starting a whole mess and paying $1500 - $2000 for a new tank today or taking the chance that someday you might have to pay $500? More likely if they haven't caught it or done anything by now, you'll pay zero.
I called the title company, who said that they will get back to me to confirm, but, offhand, they said they don't cover "personal property".
They said they "think" the propane tank (just like a satellite dish) is actually "personal property".
They suggested I talk to my real estate agent whom I did call.
My real estate agent didn't know (she suggested I look on the net) but she said she'd see if she could find out.
It could be that personal property is considered abandoned at some time period after the sale; or, it could be that personal property lasts forever (like the car example someone gave earlier).
I don't know but it seems the question boils down to:
Given the propane company can probably prove they originally owned the tank, and that they originally entered into an agreement with the prior seller, who didn't disclose anything (either way) about the tank (or, for that matter, the satellite dishes on the roof) ... who owns that tank today?
Either *they* own it (because they originally owned it); or, I own it (by virtue of the fact they abandoned it).
I still don't know the answer to that key question ...
Why exactly is that? All he has is a tech from the current gas company telling him that he thinks it is owned by company X, which is now part of the current gas company.
From the scenario you
This is just pure nonsense. Just because you don't have a bill of sale doesn't mean you don't own it. I don't have a bill of sale for most of the stuff in my house. Does that mean I don't own it? Does the current gas company have the bill of sale or proof that THEY own it? All you have are the flapping gums of one tech.
The simple fact is at this point you don't know who owns it. And again, you're getting gas, no one is saying they want the tank back, no one is charging you for it. WTF is the problem?
So, at this point, I believe that the serial number probably matches that of the serial number of the tank that was originally rented to the previous owner.
So, that serial number would certainly prove that the original tank was originally owned by the original company which is now probably owned by my propane company who bought the original propane company & presumably their assets.
So the key question is how long can such property be left at someone's house in California before it can be considered abandoned (e.g., propane tanks, satellite dishes, etc.).
My title company said it was likely personal property and therefore not covered by them (they'll get back to me).
The county planning office said they have a record of permits but they do NOT write down serial numbers on those permits.
My real estate agent said she has never run into this question before and suggested I ask on the Internet.
The key question is who owns the tank after it has been left there for about five years in the state of California and not "claimed" nor removed by the original company?
On Fri, 27 Sep 2013 20:25:02 +0000 (UTC), Alex Gunderson wrote in Re Re: Who actually owns this 1,000 gallon propane tank?:
Generally, personal property that is "substantially affixed" to real property, becomes real property. For example, consider a large bathroom mirror that is hung with wires on the back of the mirror frame to hooks on the wall. That mirror is personal property.
But take that mirror and screw it onto the wall via bolts going through the frame and into the studs and it becomes real property.
Is a large outside steel tank connected by underground pipe to a heating unit (which is certainly real property) also real property? I would say yes; but that's what they have juries for: to decide such things.
For some strange reason, from a home-repair perspective, owning a big round cylinder that will outlast me plus the next two owners of my residence (whomever they may be) just isn't a big worry for me.
I'm more worried about things that actually have moving parts.
I think I didn't make it clear that I was just lining up my ducks.
I agree with you, it matters not who owns it as long as they don't charge me for them owning it.
I asked the question only because I only recently found out that they say they own it - and I expect them to say that I need to pay rent at some point in the future.
Or, I might want to go to a different supplier, and, if so, I can no longer file an affidavit that implies that I own it.
At either of those points, it matters greatly who owns it. That's why I care now. Before one of those two things happens.
When he said it, I questioned it, saying I owned the tank. He said the serial numbers matched as did the address, but that he'd check. I haven't heard back from him (but that was only yesterday).
The implication was that it's the same address and serial number of a tank that is in the database of the company that owned the tank originally.
Presumably the first company merged databases with the second company? If it's all true, then it would be rather easy (since the address and serial numbers would match.)
Good question. I don't care IF. If they don't try any funny stuff, it won't matter to me. But, what if they try to say I can't go to a 2nd supplier for propane? What if they decide to charge me forward rent? Or back rent? (I doubt they'd do that though).
Once they claim ownership, then when I go to a second company for propane, I can't legally sign an affidavit stating I believe I own the tank.
So, it matters greatly who owns that tank at this moment in time!
I would agree with that (but I'm not a lawyer); it sounds reasonable.
I just checked and I've had that tank for only 4.5 years. If they decide to charge back rent (which I doubt they would), it looks like I'm in the free period now at least! :)
This is true. All they needed to do was disconnect the pipes with a wrench and bring a truck to haul it away. They might have to pay me for the fuel inside, but, other than that, they "could" have physically taken it. (I'm not sure if there are legal rules against trespassing to take back your property though.)
its probably best to keep the tank at least half full, in case some day OP cant get it filled. Then keep a low profile and hope its forgotten about. repainting the tank is probably a good idea, to fix rust and cover possible ownership questions.
when OP is ready to sell home expect lots of unpleasant questions.....
If it comes down to a new tank, we'd have to follow current regulations, and the current tank location wouldn't meet the new regulations for distance from structures.
But, I shouldn't have brought that up because the "real" question is who owns the tank at this very moment.
I will try to contact the manufacturer of the tank when I get home to ask them if they can trace the serial number to an original owner.
I keep meaning to ask, are you sure this is a 1000 gallon tank? That would be HUGE for a residence. Generally, they are 100-120 gallons; physically, maybe 6' long x 24-30" in diameter.
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