Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:45:14 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

That's what Tire Rack told me too!
Too bad these guys didn't do that, because I think they may have bent the rims (I have no proof other than their sloppiness) and they said they didn't - but - had they spun them prior - we'd all know the right answer.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:26:02 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

Everyone is forgetting about the valve stem.
Even on a used wheel, they removed roughly a half ounce of aluminum to drill the hole, and they added back more than an ounce of rubbery stuff to put the valve there.
So, it's *still* the heavy spot, no matter how old the wheel is.
Or am I missing something?
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 13:01:31 -0400, David L. Martel wrote:

Hi David Martel, Yes, I read *every* article I cited. And, I agree *some* concluded it doesn't matter much. Yet, *others* didn't conclude that. And, more to the point, almost all said put the red next to the valve stem. Because, it's clear, the valve stem is clearly the heavy spot on the wheel (the math is in the Bridgestone articles).
Guess how many of my (currently unbalanced) tires ended up with the red dot anywhere near the valve stem?
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Blue,

No. You cited two articles and each of them concluded that matching the dots was pointless. You did not cite other articles that reached other conclusions. That's not to say that there aren't other articles which may reach other conclusions. Surprising that you did not cite them. Is there any "back-story"? I doubt that "street driving" or the daily commute needs this sort of balancing. What sort of driving are you doing and where?
Dave M.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 19:43:43 -0400, David L. Martel wrote:

Hmmmmm.... I'm not sure if you are trying to help, and understand; or, if you're just trying to argue, for argument's sake, so, I'll assume the former and repeat what was already stated a few times already.
Look at the seven references that were provided. Let's take them one by one (excepting the two you just discussed which we agreed upon already).

Where in that article does it say matching the dots was pointless?

Where in that TSB does it say matching the dots was pointless?

Where in that pamphlet does it say matching the dots was pointless?

Where in that magazine article does it say match mounting is pointless? (It said it's complicated - but not pointless.)
I could go on but, I'm not sure why you disagree that the articles themselves present somewhat mutually exclusive conclusions - which is the whole reason the question was asked in the first place.
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Blue,
I'm not trying to argue with you. I read your OP and responded to it by reading the cited articles and raising the obvious point that the articles view the dots as not helpful.

Seven references? I went back to your OP and looked for this. You have 2 references to articles and 2 photos. Perhaps you have written a post with these seven references but I did not read it. I've only looked at your original post and a few replies.

Since you did not cite these articles I did not read them. I still haven't. I've no opinion on them.
Let's start over. You have an interest, for some reason, in "match-mounting" tires on a car. You have researched this and found that the "experts" disagree. Not surprising, experts often disagree. You wish advice. You come to a Home Repair newsgroup. Why? No offense but the posters here, while they may have opinions are probably not experts. I had never heard of match-marking until I read your post. In thinking about it, I don't get it. Sounds like a fad to me. Honestly I doubt you will get expert advice here. My opinion is not expert advice. You have observed that the local tire shop does not seem to use match-marking. This suggests to me that they are happy with their current practice for balancing and (a very important point) ttheir customers seem happy, too. I doubt that they would refuse to align the dots per your instructions while mounting and balancing your tires. So, we're back where we began. You need to know what dots to align. Here's a plan. Decide what tires you wish to buy, get the tire manufacturer's recommendation on match-mounting those tires. E-mail makes this stuff easy.
Dave M.
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:27:04 -0400, David L. Martel wrote:

OK. I apologize. I do agree, as with *many* technical issues, the answers are equivocal. That's why I had asked here in the first place. I thought someone else would have already thought of the answer.
It turns out, if you read *some* articles, the tire dots and wheel match-mounting marks are *only* for OE installations.
Yet, if you read others, they're for all installations.
While there were multiple (somewhat conflicting) recommendations in the articles, the *most common* recommendation was as simple as this:
0. Road force balancing is best.
If you don't road-force balance, then:
1. If you have a wheel match-mounting mark, and if you have a tire red dot, match the red dot to the match-mounting mark.
2. If you don't have a match-mounting mark, and you have a red dot, match the red dot to the valve stem.
3. If you don't have a red dot, then substitute the yellow dot.
Also, common sense now dictates:
a. Know your lug bolt (or nut) torque BEFORE you bring your vehicle to the tire shop, and check the torque with a torque stick afterward (because they torque all vehicles to the same force).
b. Bring along a tool for removal of the hub cap (e.g., for BBS wheels), because the tire shop may use a screwdriver instead.
c. Know your PSI (front and rear) and check the PSI with a tire gauge before you leave the shop (they don't bother to put the correct psi).
d. Remove wheel weights yourself before bringing the vehicle to the shop because you can't trust that they'll do it (they almost never do).
e. Don't bother asking anyone else for advice; they don't know any better than you do.
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blue bmw wrote:

NOT true. Most good shops will remove the lugs with an impact and install using either torque sticks or an actual torque wrench. I know both of the local shops use sticks.

All depends on the vehicle. If it needs a special tool then it doesn't hurt to bring it. In the case of 99% of vehicles either a small bar or a screwdriver is the correct tool.

The "correct pressure" for the tire you install may not be close to the number on the door sticker. That is especially true if you use a non stock size or an entirely different make of tire. Then you go out and measure the contact patch.

Most remove added weight then spin the bare rim to see if it is true and balanced.

--
Steve W.

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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:51:46 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

Not true in the case of BBS wheels.
Out of the last four times I've had tires put on this car, 0% of the recommended Tire Rack installers (twice Goodyear, and twice Midas) had the proper tool.
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:51:46 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

My vehicle is 100% stock.
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:51:46 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

MIDAS did not remove the previous weights before attempting to balance the wheels and tire assembly.
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:27:04 -0400, David L. Martel wrote:

This is my mistake. Not yours.
I had expected advice.
I got opinion.
I do firmly agree it's *my* fault for expecting too much from this ng.
I do apologize.
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On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:15:20 AM UTC-4, blue bmw wrote:

May I ask a couple of simple, yet serious, questions?
1 - Why did you expect advice on tire mounting in a ng with the name alt.home.repair?
2 - Would you expect advice on installing a faucet from alt.autos.bmw?
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 06:45:47 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:

My mistake.
I thought you guys knew how to properly install tires, especially since some of you *must* have, at one point, mounted your own tires, or, at least have *thought* about the proper way to mount tires.
I will remove a.h.r from all further replies.
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Which part of "home repair" is confusing to you?
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:27:04 -0400, David L. Martel wrote:

I now have the answer, based on the references, and speaking personally to Ken Tener and Allan at Tire Rack.
The dots to align are the red dot with the match-mounting mark, or, if there is no red dot, then the yellow dot to the match mounting notch, or, if there is no match-mounting dimple, then the valve stem to the red dot (or to the yellow dot if there is no red dot).
However, if someone here knows of *better* references, please post; otherwise, we're pretty much done as there isn't anything more to learn (especially if people have no better information than I had when I started looking for the answer).
Here are the technical references that I know of which discuss proper match mounting of wheels and tires:
1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels: http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID 04
2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting: http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf
3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting: http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/97v1issue2/Doctor.asp
4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting: http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires_101/tire_care_and_safety/match_mounting/
5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting: http://www.yokohamatire.com/assets/docs/tsb_MatchMounting_12803.pdf
6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"): http://www.rma.org/tire_care_info/tire_care_manual/Chapters/chapter_2_care_and_service_080311_final.pdf
7. Tire Rack article on match mounting: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid 
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On 07/17/2013 06:20 AM, blue bmw wrote:

you're just looking for outdated carp that agrees with your underinformed preconceptions, not the actual facts. truth is, and this is what you simply keep refusing to acknowledge, that with modern quality tires, it's a complete waste of time so you're just a loony howling at the moon.
--
fact check required

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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:27:04 -0400, David L. Martel wrote:

Hello David,
This is my fault. You seem to be think reasonably. It was my fault for not promptly re-iterating the seven references cited. Here are the seven original references, all of which I've read:
1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels: http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID 04
2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting: http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf
3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting: http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/97v1issue2/Doctor.asp
4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting: http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires_101/tire_care_and_safety/match_mounting/
5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting: http://www.yokohamatire.com/assets/docs/tsb_MatchMounting_12803.pdf
6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"): http://www.rma.org/tire_care_info/tire_care_manual/Chapters/chapter_2_care_and_service_080311_final.pdf
7. Tire Rack article on match mounting: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid 
An eighth reference "might" be this Michelin (airplane) tire installation reference, which is only included here because JB intimated that Michelin doesn't even use the red dots - which - a quick google showed to be false (at least for Michelin, the company, and their training on proper mounting of aircraft tires).
8. Michelin recommendations for proper airplane tire mounting: http://www.airmichelin.com/generalcontent.aspx?id !9 Specifically the level-II certification document, page 12, section titled: "TIRE/WHEEL ALIGNMENT FOR BALANCE".
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On 07/18/2013 01:07 PM, blue bmw wrote:

and yet i've bought 10 brand new factory fresh michelin tires in the last 3 years - not a single dot. but you'd know this is you'd bothered to check your facts.
--
fact check required

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