On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:55:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:
Are you sure that Michelin doesn't believe in the dot-mark method?
Why does the Michelin aviation tire training specifically discuss
the red dot in their level II tire professional certification program?
Specifically, this professional-training PDF:
TIRE/WHEEL ALIGNMENT FOR BALANCE
The “red” balance mark on the lower sidewall indicates
the light point of the tire’s balance. Align this mark with
the heavy point of the wheel. In the absence of a balance
mark, align the tire’s Serial Number with the heavy point
of the wheel (main landing gear position tires only).
Many wheel manufacturers today identify either the
light spot or heavy spot of the wheel with markings in
the flange area. Follow their instructions on assembly
and balance. Be sure to align the tire’s light spot 180°
from the wheel’s light spot or directly in line with the
wheel’s heavy spot. In the absence of specific wheel
markings, align the tire’s red balance mark with the
wheel inflation valve.
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:18:57 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
You missed the point that Michelin DOES dot mark and the
statement above that Michelin doesn't dot mark.
I was responding specifically to the quote "they don't dot mark".
I proved *they* (i.e., Michelin) clearly do dot mark.
It took two seconds to prove that statement.
It would simply take longer to find a similar reference for
automotive tires - but there is no need - because clearly
Michelin *does* dot mark.
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:58:35 +0000 (UTC), "Angel A."
Okay, I can see where the auto manufacturers "require" their tire and
rim manufacturers to provide some balance points. But that's not a
"law." That's what I meant to say.
But new factory rims and tires and aftermarket tires on old rims are
Wasting a minute of "serious" thought on those dots is a waste of
time. To me anyway. I don't mount my own tires or balance them.
You're going to get the balancing the shop gives you.
If you're concerned about weight or dot cosmetics you can make that
known to the shop. Maybe it will make a difference in cosmetics, but
in the end what matters is that the wheel is balanced.
You can find out if the shop pays attention to the dots.
But the guy you talk to might not be doing the balancing.
I never stand over a worker's shoulder telling him how to do his job.
If he doesn't balance a tire correctly, I bring it back.
In nearly every case I don't have to. A few years ago I had new
tires put on my car and thought they were balanced right.
A couple months later I was in Tennessee where the limit is 75, and it
was shaking at 77. Took it back and they rebalanced and it was fine
at any speed there after. Yeah, it was irritating, but that's life.
I recently bought a 2003 Impala with good rubber, and it was shaking
at speed when I got it. Got the wheels balanced at the same shop, and
made sure I did a high speed run right after, because I was going on a
road trip. Vibrations were gone, and it's been fine since.
I never looked at the weights or dots. If somebody wants to talk
about them, fine with me.
Just trying to save the BMW guy some time.
Here's a Hunter 9700 demo. Kinda boring unless you dig it.
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 16:20:32 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:
Clearly they were incompetent. I don't know about stupid.
IMHO, all tire installers are incompetent, or lazy, or both.
The proof is merely in watching what they do, e.g.,
- wheel cover removal (if yours requires tools)
- torque of lug bolts (or lug nuts for those who have them)
- tire pressure (differential front and rear for those who have them)
- removal of previous weights
- cleaning of caked-on dirt on the inside of the rim
I'd wager that 90% of the tires installed today are installed
properly WITH RESPECT TO the combination of those things above
all being done correctly.
IMHO, the only one who *thinks* their tires are installed
properly is someone who doesn't know how they're supposed to
be installed in the first place.
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 07:43:56 -0700, jim beam wrote:
Michelin actually *does* explain clearly how to install tires
based on match mounting marks and on the red dot.
It was on page 32 of the 8th reference, already posted, which
was a Michelin certification class in professionally installing
tires in critical applications.
you're twisting the facts. you quoted an installation guide for
aircraft tires - ones that have dots on them. michelin car tires, even
their high end pilot series, don't have them. i've checked my facts on
this. you're just wriggling and squirming.
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:01:49 -0700, jim beam wrote:
I can *only* speak for *my* experience, and, for me, 100% of
the time, my tires were installed improperly.
Since they didn't target me, the only difference between me
and everyone else, is that I kept a Bentley on my front seat.
Remember, they had to *ask me* what the torque was when I had
asked and they said they torque all lug bolts to 100 foot pounds!
Also, when I told them that I'd check the air pressure, only then
did the tech go back to the vehicle, check the door jamb, and then
readjust the tire pressure.
Keep in mind, that I saw the old weights on the wheel after it
was on the balance machine.
Again, the only difference between me and the next person is simply
that I knew (a little bit) about how they *should* be installing
Hmph. I notice you snipped the part where you claimed I said something that I didn't.
No, I said that aligning a set of meaningless dots is irrational.
Sure I can -- there are good and valid engineering reasons for torquing fasteners to a
particular tightness and no tighter, and expecting that is perfectly rational. That's not the
case with your silly tire dots, which are there only to delude the weak-minded into believing
that they're actually doing something important to improve vehicle performance. I'd bet a
hundred bucks that you can't tell the difference behind the wheel.
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