Which of these 4 spots (2 on tire, 2 on wheel) are supposed to be lined up?

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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:55:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:

Are you sure that Michelin doesn't believe in the dot-mark method?
Why does the Michelin aviation tire training specifically discuss the red dot in their level II tire professional certification program? http://www.airmichelin.com/generalcontent.aspx?id !9
Specifically, this professional-training PDF: http://www.airmichelin.com/uploadedFiles/MichelinAirDev/StandardContent/Resource/certification_level_2.pdf
VERBATIM: TIRE/WHEEL ALIGNMENT FOR BALANCE The “red” balance mark on the lower sidewall indicates the light point of the tire’s balance. Align this mark with the heavy point of the wheel. In the absence of a balance mark, align the tire’s Serial Number with the heavy point of the wheel (main landing gear position tires only). Many wheel manufacturers today identify either the light spot or heavy spot of the wheel with markings in the flange area. Follow their instructions on assembly and balance. Be sure to align the tire’s light spot 180° from the wheel’s light spot or directly in line with the wheel’s heavy spot. In the absence of specific wheel markings, align the tire’s red balance mark with the wheel inflation valve.
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 19:11:11 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw

Wait. Is your BMW an airplane?
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 15:18:57 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

You missed the point that Michelin DOES dot mark and the statement above that Michelin doesn't dot mark.
I was responding specifically to the quote "they don't dot mark". I proved *they* (i.e., Michelin) clearly do dot mark.
It took two seconds to prove that statement. It would simply take longer to find a similar reference for automotive tires - but there is no need - because clearly Michelin *does* dot mark.
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:55:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:

hey jb why do you just make this stuff up? just view runout and match mounting at http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/toolbox/videos-demos.jsp#runout_matchmountingCD
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On 07/18/2013 02:24 PM, Eddie Powalski wrote:

as i've said before, i've bought 10 new michelins in the last 3 years - 4 pilots, 2 harmonies and 4 defenders - none have dots.
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:58:35 +0000 (UTC), "Angel A."

Okay, I can see where the auto manufacturers "require" their tire and rim manufacturers to provide some balance points. But that's not a "law." That's what I meant to say. But new factory rims and tires and aftermarket tires on old rims are different animals. Wasting a minute of "serious" thought on those dots is a waste of time. To me anyway. I don't mount my own tires or balance them. You're going to get the balancing the shop gives you. If you're concerned about weight or dot cosmetics you can make that known to the shop. Maybe it will make a difference in cosmetics, but in the end what matters is that the wheel is balanced. You can find out if the shop pays attention to the dots. But the guy you talk to might not be doing the balancing. I never stand over a worker's shoulder telling him how to do his job. If he doesn't balance a tire correctly, I bring it back. In nearly every case I don't have to. A few years ago I had new tires put on my car and thought they were balanced right. A couple months later I was in Tennessee where the limit is 75, and it was shaking at 77. Took it back and they rebalanced and it was fine at any speed there after. Yeah, it was irritating, but that's life. Nobody's perfect. I recently bought a 2003 Impala with good rubber, and it was shaking at speed when I got it. Got the wheels balanced at the same shop, and made sure I did a high speed run right after, because I was going on a road trip. Vibrations were gone, and it's been fine since. I never looked at the weights or dots. If somebody wants to talk about them, fine with me. Just trying to save the BMW guy some time. Here's a Hunter 9700 demo. Kinda boring unless you dig it. http://www.hunter.com/videos/index.cfm?cat=3
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On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:49:00 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Or not, as in this case.
I walked away, after 2-1/2 hours, with four new valve stems, and four new unbalanced wheels, and a spare rim sans tire in the trunk.
Sigh.
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 16:20:32 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

Clearly they were incompetent. I don't know about stupid. IMHO, all tire installers are incompetent, or lazy, or both.
The proof is merely in watching what they do, e.g., - wheel cover removal (if yours requires tools) - torque of lug bolts (or lug nuts for those who have them) - tire pressure (differential front and rear for those who have them) - removal of previous weights - cleaning of caked-on dirt on the inside of the rim - etc.
I'd wager that 90% of the tires installed today are installed properly WITH RESPECT TO the combination of those things above all being done correctly.
IMHO, the only one who *thinks* their tires are installed properly is someone who doesn't know how they're supposed to be installed in the first place.
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On 07/17/2013 05:55 AM, blue bmw wrote:

you mean like some people on usenet???

why don't you call up michelin and tell them they're incompetent and don't know what they're doing? i'm sure they'd love to hire an expert that can put them straight!
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 07:43:56 -0700, jim beam wrote:

Michelin actually *does* explain clearly how to install tires based on match mounting marks and on the red dot.
It was on page 32 of the 8th reference, already posted, which was a Michelin certification class in professionally installing tires in critical applications.
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On 07/18/2013 01:18 PM, blue bmw wrote:

you're twisting the facts. you quoted an installation guide for aircraft tires - ones that have dots on them. michelin car tires, even their high end pilot series, don't have them. i've checked my facts on this. you're just wriggling and squirming.
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So put them on yourself, and quit complaining.
Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?
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On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:01:49 -0700, jim beam wrote:

I can *only* speak for *my* experience, and, for me, 100% of the time, my tires were installed improperly.
Since they didn't target me, the only difference between me and everyone else, is that I kept a Bentley on my front seat.
Remember, they had to *ask me* what the torque was when I had asked and they said they torque all lug bolts to 100 foot pounds!
Also, when I told them that I'd check the air pressure, only then did the tech go back to the vehicle, check the door jamb, and then readjust the tire pressure.
Keep in mind, that I saw the old weights on the wheel after it was on the balance machine.
Again, the only difference between me and the next person is simply that I knew (a little bit) about how they *should* be installing tires properly.
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On 07/17/2013 06:01 AM, blue bmw wrote:

then you 100% don't know what you're doing.

so you're a professional tire installer? no? have you ever been one? no? well that says what we need to know.
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Possibly by some irrational definition of "improperly" that includes failing to align some meaningless set of dots...
Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?

A: The porcupine has the prick on the *outside*.

Probably to see if you had any idea...

Which is pretty reasonable, really.

So? That doesn't mean anything at all.

Seems to me you have two choices: (a) quit telling the installers how to do their jobs, and install your own damn tires instead, or (b) quit complaining.
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On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:52:38 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

Hello Doug,
You don't make sense to me.
Why do you insist torquing to manufacturer specifications is an "irrational definition" of proper procedure?
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Idiot.
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On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:42:15 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

You said my comment was irrational.
Then you agreed that expecting correct torque is rational.
You can't have it both ways.
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Hmph. I notice you snipped the part where you claimed I said something that I didn't.

No, I said that aligning a set of meaningless dots is irrational.

Yes.

Sure I can -- there are good and valid engineering reasons for torquing fasteners to a particular tightness and no tighter, and expecting that is perfectly rational. That's not the case with your silly tire dots, which are there only to delude the weak-minded into believing that they're actually doing something important to improve vehicle performance. I'd bet a hundred bucks that you can't tell the difference behind the wheel.
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On 07/18/2013 04:05 PM, blue bmw wrote:

no, he wants it the straight way. you're resorting to wriggling and squirming because the facts don't suit you.
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