Where to get Road Stencils (huge white letters)?

[Henry Jones]

I agree that the roadblock was symbolic. It wouldn't stop a determined terrorist for instance.

But what else would you suggest to get the word out?

Yes. So that's a bit disconcerting. Why would their map be wrong? I don't know the answer to that question.

If they want it to be a public road, then the county is gonna have to put a few hundred thousand dollars into it. So that might be a good thing. But it's not gonna happen.

It's hard to talk to "the county" since all you get is a person in a department, but the Road Dept. said they don't maintain the road.

[Henry Jones]

If you're talking about unknown unwritten unrecorded easements, that *can* happen, but none could apply to *my* property unless the previous property owner of my property gave that unwritten unrecorded easement.

All I can tell you is that I don't know of any unknown unrecorded unwritten easements on "my" property that the title company can find.

Nobody else can sell an easement on my property; so it doesn't matter what easements the neighbors have.

You are correct! Thank you for clarifying that it was "who he is" not "whom he is".

The title company is privy to recorded easements. There are no recorded easements for the general public. The recorded easements are for the few homeowners served by the road.

I am unaware of any unwritten or unrecorded easement for the general public to use the road for any purpose.

You are correct. If there is any easement, recorded or unrecorded, written or verbal, for the general public, neither my title company nor I are privy to them.

[Henry Jones]

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm too logical not to be an atheist.

Religion started as a science, and it fails at being a science. However, very clever people learned how to subvert that science to the point that it because a lucrative set of political controls.

I know too much about both science and recorded history to be controlled by religious zealots.

Man invented god simply because, at first, man needed to explain why lightning killed people. Then man invented a variety of spirit gods to explain why trees fall down on people. Finally, a cunningly enterprising man invented a political god who acted just like a king (fancy that) with all the evils and mean spirited thoughts that people have.

And that is the man-invented political god we have today, in some form or the other, who is used as a tool to control people just as a homeowner association is another government upon a homeowner.

Are you willing to pay for the signs? They'll cost something like $100 to $150 each, installed. There will be about 10 of them overall on my property.

You can send me the check any time.

Of course. I don't know *who* stole my tools, but they were stolen when they were left near the road. I doubt my neighbors stole them, but I don't know who stole them.

My kids have run up to me telling me there are strange people on our property, and I go down and tell them to leave immediately.

I am.

Again, you can send me the check for the signs I'm putting up, each one will cost around $100 to $150 installed.

[Henry Jones]

Exactly!

Better to pay for signs now, than to be sued later.

They can still sue for anything, but if I've been having them arrested, they have less of a case (but it all depends on how a judge thinks).

[Henry Jones]

The road was built long ago. I own the land the road is on.

Some of the neighbors' properties butt up against mine. The road branches to each of their properties as their property lines split the road longitudinally (whereas mine split the road perpendicularly).

They have an easement to use my portion of the road for 3 purposes only: a. They have the right (and obligation) to maintain the road b. They have the right of transit for themselves & their guests c. They have the right of transit for their utilities & deliveries

That's it. There is no other use for the road.

Actually, it was the other way around. The public had a dispute with the homeowner. And, they declined to write up the report (they told me). Dunno what that means in a legal sense.

[Henry Jones]

Yes. What I want is the legally correct words to describe the legal situation.

I don't see my situation as being different than anyone elses' in the same state who has a private road that was not built nor maintained for public access.

?

I did briefly consider charging a fee to use the road. Legally, if you charge a fee, they can't sue successfully for access because they already have access by permission (if they pay for that access).

Do you think $5 per person per visit is about the correct amount?

Now you got me curious. What's wrong with my photo? Is the lighting bad? Or is it the angle?

Thanks for the advice. I'd prefer to have zero claims against my home insurance, thank you.

The insurance company knows that the road is private with no public access. The premiums would go up if the road had public access.

You have obviously never dealt with the government.

The one foul-mouthed guy told the police using similar foul language that he used with me that I was blocking the road and that they wanted me arrested for blocking the road.

The cops came and asked what the situation was. Then before they left, they suggested we put up better signs.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Seems like you are all set now that you know what signs you need. Once in place, I'd still camp out a few days with the barrier to make the point. In addition to the required legal signs, I'd put a couple of "no trespassing residents only" signs in the middle of the road, perhaps leaving just enough room to drive by so you don't have to move them every time you go to the store.

Oh, I'd also notify the police once properly signed so they may be able to support you better if they see violations.

[James Wilkinson]

You need to buy a B, or people will make fun.

Or get those things they put at car park exits to stop people entering the wrong way, the flaps that kill the tyres if you drive the wrong way. Or to be more subtle, a few nicely placed nails which were "accidentally dropped there". Just remember to remove them before you drive past, or go round where you know they are.

A land mine would be more fun, but you might get fined for noise pollution.

[rbowman]

That's par for the course in this county. Some are Forest Service, some are old logging roads that are indifferently maintained. The land ownership goes back to when the Federal government was giving land to the railroads in a checkerboard pattern. Most of the railroad lands passed to the lumber companies who built roads. The companies like Plum Creek have went into the real estate business and are subdividing some of the sections. This leaves the road ownership a touchy subject since there were a lot of easements to provide public access to the state or federal sections on the checkerboard.

Even the FS gets into the game. Some landowners have refused the Forest Service access to FS lands. Maybe legal, maybe not but the FS takes the unofficial position of "when the forest behind your house burns, call somebody who cares.'

As I mentioned. the Republican gubernatorial candidate tried to block fishing access and lost. Being a billionaire doesn't impress people in this state. Now he has the chutzpah to run political ads inviting people to go fishing at the site. It ain't his to invite.

[Henry Jones]

Here is a summary...

PROBLEM:

- People trespass

PROPOSED SOLUTION: A. Fix the maps B. Improve the signage (include input from local utility & county parks) C. Police the property

FIX THE MAPS:

- Private-road related maps apparently *start* at the deed!

- The County Assessor's office turns the deed into a County Map!

- The assessor correctly shows the road with a dotted line

- On an Assessor's map a dotted line is a private road, no public access

- However, Google, DeLorme, Egri, Here, etc. use the GIS maps

- The County Geographic Information Services use the Assessor's maps

- Unfortunately GIS shows the road with a solid line (aka ambiguous)

- So the GIS guys will fix that by adding a PVT attribute to our road

- Over time, that will propagate to Google, DeLorme, etc.

- In addition, I filed a Google map error complaint on the web

- Google won't do anything over the phone (trust me, I tried)

- The police get their maps from GIS so that will also propagate

IMPROVE THE SIGNAGE:

- Work with local police, utility, & local county parks

- Understand California Penal Code 602L signage requirements

- Sign 3-to-a-mile and at entrances & exits

- One-foot square, 2-inch letters saying either: a. Mandated: "TRESPASSING/LOITERING FORBIDDEN BY LAW" b. Acceptable: "PRIVATE PROPERTY (or Private Road or Private Drive, etc.) NO TRESPASSING" c. Preferred: "PRIVATE PROPERTY (or Private Road or Private Drive, etc.) TRESPASSING/LOITERING FORBIDDEN BY LAW VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE 602"

I'm not sure about the use of the road stencils, but if it doesn't look too ugly, it should work to better inform the public.

[Henry Jones]

Sorry about that. I have my capslock key disabled because it drives me nuts, so, I had to hold down the shift key while typing that.

Overall, I think we have the solution, although I wish I had thought of everything you guys brought up *before* I wasted two days blocking the road.

[Henry Jones]

Through my title company, I traced the road back to the fifties and sixties, where it was just a trail. There are easements only for utility companies whom I'm in contact with - so this is progress.

In addition, I am in contact with the park service (although this must be their vacation week because more than half the calls come back saying they are out on vacation).

Both the utility company and park service are willing to work with us, so, we're making great progress moving forward with consistent signage.

I'm now realizing my entire approach was wrong to block the road in that it's not the most effective way to getting the point across that trespassers should not trespass.

The correct approach is: a. Sign the road b. Correct the maps c. Get all affected parties involved

We have Knox boxes on the road gates at the trail entrance.

I don't have a lot of money so I'm hoping my main cost will only be for the signs, which will cost me around $1,000 (give or take) and where my neighbors "may" pitch in (I'm not asking them to since I'm only going to sign my land and I'll let them volunteer their land for signs.)

[Henry Jones]

Of course we can put up a gate.

I can unilaterally put up a gate at each border with my property, but that wouldn't be responsible without the consent of the other residents.

The other residents are fine with a gate. The main problem is the post office doesn't do gates.

That's really the main issue.

NOTE: Someone suggested putting only one mailbox outside the gate where opening *that* mailbox opens the gate! :)

[Henry Jones]

Yup. Thanks for everyone's help finding good suppliers. The local signmakers want over $100 per sign! So I have to go online for sure.

I agree that I was doing things backward. Instead of buying barriers, I should have invested in signs!

Once the signs are up for six months or so, the barriers make more sense to get the word out to the ones who are ignoring the signs.

Thanks for that idea of signing the MIDDLE of the road!

I'm always worried about trucks such as moving trucks because I can't block utility access to the residents.

So, with that in mind, I realized from what you said that we could put a pipe in the road, where the sign can be temporarily removed though!

I have the police in mind for sure since they are the ones who most clearly said they'd have a hard time arresting people if we don't put up the proper signs.

It turns out the police maps were wrong. The police maps were wrong because the county geographic information services maps were wrong. The GIS maps were wrong because they incorrectly interpreted the assessor's maps. The assessor's maps were correct because they correctly interpreted the deed.

So, I worked my way painstakingly to the source!

Don't even ask me how difficult it is to get Google to change their maps!

[DerbyDad03]

I said it before, and I'll say it again.

Perhaps the "main issue" is that some residents don't want to move their mailboxes.

Which do you think it would be easier to to do? Change USPS policy or change the minds of those residents?

[bob haller]

so are the other neighbors upset about people driving on their lane?

might be better to try and relocate the lane just enough so you cant see those you dont want there

like put up a solid fence/

your property then gets protected however you want......

gate with guard shack etc etc

everyone else uses a relocated lane etc

in general installing some cameras with signs saying you are being recorded

[rbowman]

Good luck with that... We have to deal with county GIS departments all the time. Some are good, some are bad, and some are pretty much non-existent. You'd be surprised at the havoc they can wreak with ArcMap.

[rbowman]

Okay. There are some trails around here where you'd swear you're walking into the guy's backyard for a barbecue. I mean you literally walk down next to the driveway and garage and keep on going to the public land. The trails were there before the residential areas and they're still there. They can be tricky to find unless you're coming off the public lands.

[rbowman]

Like I said, look at cluster boxes. The USPS is fine with them. That's what you see around here at the entrance to private roads where there's more than one family living on the road. I get my mail from a cluster and even the big Amazon parcels fit into one of the large lockers. The mailman just leaves the key to the locker in your box if the parcel doesn't fit.

[DerbyDad03]

He can look at cluster boxes all day long, but apparently it ain't up to him. He's said numerous times that "some" of the residents don't want to move their mailboxes from the current location - right by their houses.

It seems to me (and I think to you) that "remote" mailboxes and a gate is the best solution. Everything else is just poking and hoping.