I blocked the road with cones and turned back all members of the public
yesterday, but it was extremely boring, so I can't wait for the signs to
come in. That's for the advice.
Most people said they didn't know it was a private drive, even though there
was one sign saying so at the entrance.
The drive is 18 feet wide so I can make large letters.
I'm thinking of putting down a big "stencil" on the road of something like:
"PRIVATE DRIVE | NO PULIC ACCESS"
Where do you think those stencils would be found?
These should get you started.
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to get some sort of small
light to put by your sign. It might get folks out of the auto pilot mode
some enter while driving.
Do you have an address sign for your place? Maybe something to draw
to that would be worthwhile.
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 10:09:53 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:
I don't understand your question about having an "address sign" for the
place. The drive serves a handful of homes only but there are trails at the
end that a lot of bikers and hikers use that skirt out back behind people's
property (all in private land). Eventually it connects to a public park, so
most of the traffic is people coming from the public park in the opposite
direction of cars which would be going down the road just to 'explore' it
(since it's a dead end of only about 1/2 mile long).
There "is" a standard-looking street sign, put up by the county, at the
junction with the public road and a 30x30 amber rectangle (mounted with the
points up and down and to the side) saying "No Through Traffic".
I was thinking of replacing the No Through Traffic sign with a "No Public
Access" sign, but the back of the sign has a sticker saying it's a county
sign and that it's a criminal offense to remove the sign.
I was picturing a single driveway leading to a single residence.
and rural residences have addresses similar to what town people have.
set up that way for emergency responders.
Responders using directions from a town could miscount miles,
or whatever else might happen to delay them.
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 11:20:52 -0700, Taxed and Spent wrote:
Today, a set of foul-mouthed bikers came up from the county park (it's the
only place they could have come from) about 5 miles away. The county park
has a sign saying that it's an unmaintained trail and that no bikes or
vehicles are allowed, but that's it.
Then, about 3 miles out from that sign, there are at least five to eight
(or so) private owners, none of which are signed, and then the trail comes
to my paved road, which isn't signed at that end.
When they got to my little roadblock they refused to turn back:
They told me I could take my private road and shove it up one of my
anatomical parts. Right in front of my kids, they used foul language, and I
tried to videotape them but my camera was dead so I just faked that I
They went right past me, and then they called the cops who showed up.
The cops said they used foul language with them and that they said I
knocked them off their bikes (I never touched them) but they couldn't show
the cops any injuries and the cops didn't believe them.
Anyway, the cops said the road doesn't show up as private on their maps (so
I need to fix that somehow) and that section 602L of some California code
says that the no trespassing signs must be at least three to a mile and at
the entrance and exit to trails and roads.
EDIT: Found this:
The cops said that they'd have a hard time arresting someone for
trespassing because it looks like a county road as it's about 25 feet wide
at the widest and about 18 feet wide at the thinnest and it's well paved
(although not as well as the county roads are).
So, they suggested two things:
a. Don't get in the way of the bikers - just let them pass and call them if
they refuse to get off the land.
b. Put signs up at least to the 602 code for no trespassing signs saying
that only written permission will allow anyone on the land.
I was surprised at the written-permission rule, as even the lawyer I talked
to didn't mention that.
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 17:18:34 +0000 (UTC), Henry Jones
You knew all this stuff existed when you bought *your* house, right?
Is it right to interfere with them now, when they've been using this
for such a harmless purpose?
Even if it didnt' have that sticker, you knew it wasn't YOUR sign, and
yet you were thinking of removing it to put in your own. Are you so
different from those who drive down your road when they shouldn't?
The harm is that they *could* get a prescriptive easement.
If they did, certainly the government would make requirements to maintain
the safety for them.
That could cost tens of thousands of dollars depending on what the
improvements mandated by the government would be.
So, the biggest harm is that another easement would be in place, which
lowers the value of the land tremendously and which increases the costs.
Why do you think a potential cost of many tens of thousands isn't harm?
BTW, there is also the potential harm from personal injury lawsuits, and if
you don't think legal fees are harmful to the property owner, then you've
never dealt with a lawyer. (They always win, even if you lose.)
In addition, do you want your kids playing outside acres within their own
property where trespassers can ride right by them as they're learning how
to skate a thousand feet inside their property line?
The bikers are a relatively clean lot when it comes to littering, but I
have found co2 cartridges scattered about, where I think people repaired
flats (what else would a brand new punctured co2 cartridge be used for?).
In addition, I had a guy yell to me that I could take my private road and
shove it up my you know what, right in front of my kids. Who wants to deal
with people like that when you don't have to?
The harm is everywhere you look.
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 17:07:17 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones
That's easy to avoid without closing the whole road off.
You can do what the owners of skyscrapers do with the plazas around
their buildings, plazas that are used by anyone walking by most of the
year, which are used as short cuts for people who don't want to walk
all the way to the corner to turn the corner.
You post "private road; travel at your own risk" You pick one day a
year (though that is more than is needed. Once every N years,
depending on the state is sufficient) to close off the road. You take
pictures of it, complete with something to show what date it is. That
will work better than the gate which will be shut as planned for six
months and then open all the time when no one is wiling to tend it.
I understand that the road is well paved. If they fall off their bike
and hurt themselves, it's unrelated to any negligence of yours. And
is anyone going to fall off his bike under those circumstances? I've
falled twice in 20 years and each time it was a big chuckhole filled
with water, not a well paved street.
Do you own the road or not? If you do, they are covered by your
homeowners insurance, just like the sidewalk from the driveway to
your front door is.
If not, then we can drop this whole talk.
Oh, please. The road doesn't require any improvements and you know
it, and if it did need repaving, you and your neighbors would see to
it anyhow, for reasons unrelated to these bicyclists.
I think it's mythical.
That's the way the vast majority of the US and every country lives.
Your property is over 1000 feet in one direction? You've let money go
to your head.
That's bad, but by your own words that was after you told them they
couldn't use the road, after it being used that way, and he was angry.
And by the way, "up your ass " is on the very mild end of foul
language. When you first said foul, I thought you meant much worse.
So you'd exclude everyone because of that one guy?
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 22:32:28 -0600, rbowman wrote:
The road exists for the other people.
I own most of the road, although they own their portions too.
There is no way to travel from the public road to their house without
driving on my property and on their property.
So, the answer is that "I" own a substantial portion of the road in its
entirety, and they own a portion also.
We're all in agreement that the sole purpose of the road is to serve the
people who have the benefit (and who paid for long ago) of an easement.
I agree with you that closing the road is too onerous.
Signage is what we need.
Legally that's the wrong set of words, but the concept is correct.
The correct set of words is described in this PDF:
TRESPASSING/LOITERING FORBIDDEN BY LAW
VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED
CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE 602
I don't know if that one-day-a-year road closure is actually needed, but it
does seem like a good insurance policy to do so, which *proves* that you
*can* do it.
The police were called this weekend, and they didn't stop me; which is the
point that we're establishing that "we" have control of the road access.
I did take a picture and posted it already:
Yeah. Tell that to the personal injury lawyers.
It doesn't matter. If you let someone on your property, you're responsible.
If you don't stop someone from being on your property, you're responsible.
If you tried to stop them, and they still came on, you're still
responsible, but you have a better case (and they have a worse case).
Thanks. Would you like to pay my premiums?
I own the road, and my insurance costs me thousands of dollars every year.
OK. Up until now you were reasonable. You have absolutely no idea how much
money it would costs to improve a road that is about a half mile long.
It's more money than I own.
From your armchair seat, that's understandable.
But not from mine.
The zoning out here is 40 acres to a property.
Anything less than 80 acres can't be subdivided.
Oh, it was much worse. The police were even offended enough to not even
write up a report when they called the police on me for blocking the road.
On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 04:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Henry Jones
I was talking within the context of the thread. But in more detail,
That's easy to avoid without closing the whole road off to the
It's the wrong set of words for what you had wanted to accomplist.
These are the wrong set of words for what I want. Check with your
minister and see which he says are better.
You're still thinking about your original goal. I'm telling you the
alternative, that can satisfy your understandable desire not to create
an easement but which will also allow the bicyclists to use the road.
I'm not going to go into what's wrong with your picture, because I'm
not interested in furthering your goal, only my alternate suggestion.
Your home insurance will handle nuisance suits, if there are any.
Who told you that? Your lawyer? You need another one.
You're already paying them. You may not know your lot's boundaries
but the insurance company does.
That's what I just said, you're already paying them.
They're not going to ask for any improvements. Nothing will have
Yes. What I want is the legally correct words to describe the legal
I don't see my situation as being different than anyone elses' in the same
state who has a private road that was not built nor maintained for public
I did briefly consider charging a fee to use the road.
Legally, if you charge a fee, they can't sue successfully for access
because they already have access by permission (if they pay for that
Do you think $5 per person per visit is about the correct amount?
Now you got me curious.
What's wrong with my photo?
Is the lighting bad?
Or is it the angle?
Thanks for the advice.
I'd prefer to have zero claims against my home insurance, thank you.
The insurance company knows that the road is private with no public access.
The premiums would go up if the road had public access.
You have obviously never dealt with the government.
The one foul-mouthed guy told the police using similar foul language that
he used with me that I was blocking the road and that they wanted me
arrested for blocking the road.
The cops came and asked what the situation was.
Then before they left, they suggested we put up better signs.
Seems like you are all set now that you know what signs you need. Once
in place, I'd still camp out a few days with the barrier to make the
point. In addition to the required legal signs, I'd put a couple of "no
trespassing residents only" signs in the middle of the road, perhaps
leaving just enough room to drive by so you don't have to move them
every time you go to the store.
Oh, I'd also notify the police once properly signed so they may be able
to support you better if they see violations.
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