On 3/24/2012 9:59 PM, bud-- wrote: ...
I don't think you can make that blanket as completely prohibiting horizontal mounting; I think there still is the out of "if shown to be impractical" that gives the leeway when there's some overriding reason the panel has to go there and only there.
But, in general, yes, I agree and yes, I'm just having fun w/ words, nothing more...
i think there's a real possibility here that everyone is not considering. Perhaps the area Holmes and company deal with are not subject to the NEC. Many jurisdictions (including no less than two counties near me) do not have any codes for building. And even if they do, it doesn't mean they adopt the NEC absurdities.
That doesn't explain Holmes whining about vertical panels.
Which was the essence of my post. They seem to have some strange fetish for mounting the panels sideways. I think we've established that for the most part, considering the practical application, it would be a code violation here. It also seems just plain stupid, what with the panel door rotated 90, all the markings being sideways, and half the breakers winding up being on when down.
I wonder if they also mount their wall switches sideways?
Mounting the circuit-breaker panels vertically is the common way it's done here in Ontario (Canada) - the same jurisdiction that Holmes on Homes is filmed in.
The only part of our electrical code that might play a role is that the panel height can't be more than 6.5 feet off the ground (to allow most people to be able to reach it). Now if you want adults (not children) to be able to operate the panel, then mounting it horizontally is more ergonomic, and if a panel is long then again you have a more even height off the floor if it's horizontal.
Wiring half the panel (the upper half) is technically easier and cleaner if it's horizontal.
I really haven't laid my eyes on any panels in houses here in Ontario built in the last 5 or 10 years, so I don't know if the current rage is to mount them horizontally - or if maybe that's more commonly done on retrofits and renovations. It could be that if you're renovating and installing a new panel, that if the length of the existing wires is an issue then mounting a panel horizontally can save you a lot of grief.
Assuming that wire-length isin't an issue, I'd still wire a panel vertically.
See also this thread:
no, but nothing else here has either.
Perhaps because there is no explanation for such a stupid position? I've stopped watching him because of similar whines.
You seem to be the only person that hasn't figured out Holmes is in Canada (NEC does not apply) and trader's original question was about the US - NEC.
I explained why Holmes is putting panels horizontal.
Panels HAVE been made that way - but MOST panels that I've seen where branch circuits enter the top of the panel either have the main at the bottom (with power entering from below or through the back of the panel) or on the side. Running branch circuits through the power supply side (main) of the breaker is NOT allowed here in Canada - and is not a good idea under any circumstances. The MAIN breaker must be up for on if vertically operated here, and is generally Left for on and Right for off on a horizontally activated main breaker or switch.
Physically IMPOSSIBLE on a 120/240 panel with a shared neutral, which is almost universal in Noth American residential wiring. Half would be on up, and half on down
You will note MOST of those horizontal installs are surface mounted on the framed wall of a basement, above the concrete foundation (and above outside grade) There is a limit in Canadian code to how high or how low you are allowed to mount the panel, and "side mounting" keeps all of the breakers at virtually the same height from the floor as well.
Tegger posted for all of us...
And I know how to SNIP
Datz nicz but who cares?
Actually.. if you watch enough of the shows he has fixed American homes as well. One disaster from the Ellen DeGeneres show I recall... was a two epi sode Holmes show to cover it. Most of the codes are similar, the Canadian Electrical Code and NEC are almost identical in instruction in most section s.. And remember, he is focusing on a very, very small portion of the hom es. He works out of Toronto, which is the 4th largest city in North Americ a, with only Mexico City, New York, and Los Angeles being bigger. So he ha s a lot of homes which could potentially have some issues. And.. some of t he items he does not even find which are clear code violations (or does not mention) and focuses on the spectacular television suitable ones.
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That's not _quite_ what US NEC actually says...
P 240.33 Vertical Position
Enclosures containing overcurrent protection devices shall be mounted in a vertical position unless this is impracticable. Circuit breaker enclosures can be installed horizontally, if the circuit breakers are installed in accordance with 240.81. Figure 240-28
Section 240.81 specifies that where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically, the "up" position of the handle shall be in the "on" position.
So, the prohibition isn't that the breaker must be operated vertically, but that if it is, it can't be upside down (off pointing up iow). If that weren't the case, the cheapie's w/o a main but using one slot as the feed in the panelboard wouldn't be allowed as they're horizontal.
I've not read the Canadian version but seems rather bizarre to me, too...but if hadn't seen anything but, then would probably seem normal. It does seem peculiar when clearly the panels themselves are manufactured with the idea they'll be vertically-mounted simply by the orientation of the printing and all.
If the Canadian version is different in preferring horizontal as outlined in the above conjecture, it would likely be because some particular person some time in the past had a fixation on a perceived "better way" and prevailed in getting it into their Code.
Unless you are surface mounting a breaker panel, vertical usually works better anyway because the panel will fit between two studs. Mounting it horizontally would require a header across the wider opening (unless it's a small subpanel or something).
On all of the panels I have installed, the breakers mount sideways.
Even if I were to mount the panel horizontally, the breakers on one side would flip "up" to turn on, and the other side would flip "down" to turn on. If I remember correctly, "on" is always towards the center of the panel, regardless of orientation.
Anthony Watson
The exception being FPE panels, and they ought be taken out and put in the trash.
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .
That is simply because the "on" position is opposite of the end where the terminals are.
But per the rule that you posted, doesn't that mean that if you mounted the panel sideways, per code you could only mount breakers in one half? I think that's Anthony's point.
Horizontal mounting of service panels is a "practical" consideration. Inn Canada, MOST houses have basements. Historically most houses had the panel in the basement. Those that do not have basements, or where the panel is not in the basement, the wiring comes down to the panel, lust like in the basement. The neatest, simplest, installation is to drop the wires directly into the panel rather than running the wires down beside the panel, making a right angle, and entering from the side. Since it is illegal to run protected circuits down through the main disconnect (unprotected) part of the panel, the simplest solution is to horizontally mount the panel, with the wires entering what is now the top of the panel, directly. With the large number of circuits in today's houses bringing all the wires down the side in right angling in makes for a real mess of wiring. Totay's breakers are all well marked as to on or off, confusion as to whether the breaker is on or off should be extremely rare!! The main must be on to the right or up, so the panel cannot be mounted with the main disconnect on the right - and you will ALWAYS see Holmes horizontal installations with the main disconnect on the left.
Law in Canada requires the panel to me mounted on a "panel board" - basically a piece of plywood of a minimum size, which all incoming wires must be attached to, and the panel must be attached to. Code dictates how the panel board must be attached to the structure.
General procedure in semi-finished areas is to bring the wires down inside the stud bay, and out through holes drilled in the panel board, then straight down into the panel, stapled to the panel board within 6 inches. The wall can then be dry-walled or plastered or whatever to "finish" the wall.
Also, many of the installations were origionally fuse panels, which had no restriction on orientation and were often wider than today's breaker panels, and the only practical way to replace them with a breaker panel is in the horizontal orientation - which is allowed for in US code by the "vertical position unless this is impracticable" phrasing.
Yep, when I bought this house it only had a 60 Amp service in Toronto, tossed a lot of fuses that first couple days, we had a separate box for the AC, separate box for the dryer and oven IIRC. Called a buddy who is an electrician, he replaced it all with a horizontal panel, disconnect on the left and updated the service to 100 Amp. It was all inspected and passed.
.That is true I was only referencing why "in" is "on"
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