What is the root of this BMW design flaw in all 3,5,7 series BMW trunk wiring looms?

[stratus46]

As long as it doesn't fail during the warranty period they don't care.

Is this poor grade wire mandated by regulations?

G²

[Nate Nagel]

You've never had an old British car, have you?

nate

[Nate Nagel]

You're probably expecting me to argue with you, but I'm not going to. I admit to being one of those people to whom the three most important things about a car are power, handling, and braking - so I like BMWs. (although the stock brake pads suck unless you like refinishing your wheels every couple years.) Other people don't care quite so much and consider "adequate" handling to be acceptable; for them, a BMW is just too much of a PITA to run so they buy something else. (although current ride hasn't cost me anything but maintenance and an oil filter housing gasket - knock on wood.)

And if you want to talk about s**te window regulators - I actually had an A4 chassis GTI for a while. Yes, the one with the plastic doodad that was guaranteed to break. I was understanding when I read that their supplier had deviated from the spec, but was angry when the dealership said that VWoA wouldn't let them fix both windows when I brought it in for the first one... bastards... but I digress...

nate

[Bimmer Owner]

This isn't an 'argument'; it's merely a discussion. Everything you said and everything I said was true.

The E39 that I own handles those three with aplomb!

The stock front pads are Jurid, with the rears being Textar, both with an FF friction & fade coefficient. They work well enough, although Akebono GG friction ratings are often used as replacement.

I use the Axxis/PBR FF pads, which dust the same color as the wheels, so you don't see the unsightly darker-colored dust of the stock Jurid pads.

The OFH often leaks on the BMW M54 engine; but luckily it's an inexpensive part, albeit a bit of a pain to DIY.

Overall, I think we're in agreement, so there's really no need for any argument. One thing about bimmer owners, they KNOW their cars!

[Scott Dorsey]

I have seen a lot of cars over the years, and I have never, ever seen one that used anything approaching quality wire.

And that begins with the '72 Datsun I had, where all of the insulation turned to goo and every foot of wire in the body had to be pulled out and replaced.

Just take a look at what goes into airplanes vs. what goes into cars and you'll be staggered.

--scott

[Ralph Mowery]

The price per foot will probalby do the same.

[jim beam]

you're spoiled if you work on aero-spec stuff.

car quality goes in cycles - for some manufacturers anyway. in the late

80's, hondas used a higher grade under the hood - fine wire high count high temp high flex [though not silicone], and it's remarkably reliable. in the mid 90's they changed to lower flex, smaller cross-section, lower count, much more akin to the wire used in the rest of the vehicle

- it still just about hangs in there, though i doubt it's million mile material. i'm pretty sure copper prices had a big influence on this.

planes cost a /lot/ more!

[jim beam]

??? dude, brake dust is /two/ components:

1. pad.
2. disk.

if your wheels aren't being stained, it's because #2 is not present, or at least, not to the extent that "bmw spec" [high silica] pads have.

i don't understand this equation - y'all are starry eyed about something that is completely unreliable /and/ expensive to maintain. sure, it's better than a buick, but really?

if you like fixing stuff and are serious about rwd's with handling, race-prep a miata. if you want something that handles from new, buy an elise.

don't pay bmw's "advertising beats engineering" tax.

[Scott Dorsey]

Did they tin it? The lack of tinning is one of the things that annoys me about many of the cars of that era.

Silicone is actually a problem for cars because if you nick the insulation the cut will propagate until it becomes a break.

It wasn't failing enough, so they had to downgrade it.

--scott

[jim beam]

no, it's not tinned.

there are two schools of thought on that. on the one hand, surface oxidation resistance is a good thing. on the other, there may be a problem with tin in fatigue environments. i don't know this for sure, so if you know someone at work who does, it would be good to check - but tin has a weird deformation mechanism called "twinning" which changes the surface of the metal where it's occurred. given that almost all fatigue initiates at a surface, that /might/ be a fatigue initiator. how much it might be worse than oxidation, i can't say, but i know a lot of mil spec wire is silver plated, not tin, so i think it might not be simple cheapness preventing its use.

indeed, but that's not unique to silicone - many elastomers have the same problem.

maybe. it was was bullet proof - never failed unless abused.

[Nate Nagel]

Surprisingly, I apparently got one of the first '55 Studebakers that used the plastic-insulated wire rather than the cloth-covered wire that was used previously. It was still intact and flexible when I pulled the harness for repairs 5-6 years ago which made me happy as I was not looking forward to laying out for a new one.

nate

[Nate Nagel]

N54, but same principle.

I've not found it to be that unreliable (touch wood.) There *are* a lot of electronics to fail, and that scares me a little, but that's true of every modern car with a few notable exceptions worth having and none of mine have failed yet (good lord I hope I don't regret posting that.) So far I've paid for fluid changes, aforementioned OFH gasket, and a bunch of random upgrades (euro light switch, spare tire kit, winter wheels and tires, alarm, sat tuner, etc.) Despite the reputation for being hard to work on I was able to install the alarm and sat tuner in an afternoon in the driveway following excellent directions easily available online, and without any unusual tools that a moderately DIY-oriented enthusiast is unlikely to have. Really, no harder than changing a car stereo in any garden-variety car. The biggest challenge to DIY work is actually lifting the car to get underneath due to the very limited ground clearance, but that goes with the territory of pretty much any decent handling car, and if it doesn't, an enthusiast is likely to change that :)

Neither the Miata nor the Elise has a back seat or a usable trunk.

I think having a 3er for a daily and a Miata or Elise for weekend fun would be a great combination. My mom actually has a Miata for a "fun car" and loves it (as do I) but I don't have the space/funds to justify another vehicle purchase.

And where is all this BMW advertising? I must not pay attention to the same media that you do, BMW seems to really not advertise at all compared to other manufactureres; people buy them because of reputation/previous experience/glowing reviews in magazines and on enthusiast-oriented TV programming.

nate

[jim beam]

what cognative dissonance trip are you on this morning? you catalog a bunch of completely unacceptable failures one day, then here you are the next saying it's not unreliable! are you not taking your meds?

dude, what is wrong with you this morning????

can we change who shows up with meaningless drivel on r.a.t?

ah, got it - you idea of a car that "handles" is an extended cab pickup. got it.

you sure won't have funds if you're driving a bmw.

nate, i'm sure that if you're nice to your mom, she'll let you out of the basement occasionally. you can have the tv on while she hoses you down and changes your depends.

[Nate Nagel]

What failures have I catalogued? I had a leaking oil filter housing gasket at the time the car was purchased, which was repaired and the car has been trouble free since. That is the ONLY issue that I've had in this car in about 6K miles/several months since purchase (car has 77K give or take.) There have been NO other repairs to this car under my care!

[Cydrome Leader]

probably, although I've never seen anything from lucas here.

[Cydrome Leader]

nope.

But I have had to do parking lot wiring repairs of modern german cards.

[AMuzi]

Fair enough, but not only German.

Here's my employee's Ford which self immolated while taking the child to school one day:

[Scott Dorsey]

Don't blame Lucas so much, because Lucas did make some decent systems for some British cars. Blame Triumph and MG who wanted the cheapest possible electrics from Lucas.

Although whoever decided it would be a good idea just to dispense with the headlight relay and use a 30A switch on the dashboard probably has a special corner of hell reserved for them. And don't get me started on the ignition coil designs...

--scott

[krw]

harry.

[Michael A. Terrell]

A bunch of 'Jokers', no doubt. ;-)