What is the donut/conical thing that serves the purpose of a flapper called?

What is the donut/conical thing that serves the purpose of a flapper called?
I'm trying to tell a young friend how to fix his toilet, which won't stop running.
Although the toilet looks new, the guts are old I guess and built differently from any toilet I've seen, and I don't even know the names of the parts to find replacement parts.
It doesn't have a flapper. Instead the big vertical tube that has the thinner flexiblef filler tube going to it (what's the big tube called?) has surrounding it a doughut shaped version of the flapper, mounted at the bottom end of another vertical tube (that also surrounds the first one). This outer vertical tube is lifted at its top by the arm that is connected to the toilet handle. No chain is used.
What is the name of the doughnut/conical shaped thing that serves the purpose of the flapper? Or the doughnut/outer-tube combination?
Do they still sell replacement parts for something like this?
If not, and I need to replace the filler tube, the vertical plastic tube that most toilets have, do I really have to remove the tank from the toilet?
Thanks
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pig nose
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Here's a completed auction for one...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vintage-PIGNOSE-Toilet-Tank-Ball-Rubber-Float-Hardware-Fits-Regular-Flush-/170923618141
fyi On 12/8/1930, a U.S. federal trademark registration was filed for PIGNOSE. This trademark is owned by KIRKHILL, INC., DOWNEY, CA , 90241. The USPTO has given the PIGNOSE trademark serial number of 71308735.
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wrote:

Thanks a lot, esp. for the patent number, but that's not it.
I've given up looking online for the one it has, and I'm goiug to have to replace the whole flush valve and put in one with a flapper.
But I'm going to describe it again, and try to do a better job, so you'll see how wierd the one it has now is.
This one (call it a stopper) is at the end of, a plastic tube a little more than an inch in diameter, and it has a hole in it (a little bigger than the tube) that surrounds the tube, and both the tube and the stopper (the equivalent of a pignose or a flapper, except it has a hole in the middle) surround another tube about an inch in diameter, which is centered above the hole that goes to the toilet bowl.         
The house is about 50 years old and I assume this is the original mechanism. despite how new thte toilet looks. .
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How about a photo?
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wrote:

It's called a Ballcock. (dont ya just love that name)..... I always wondered what kind of preverted plumber came up with that name.
Anyhow, these links will tell you the name of each individual part. Email them to your friend.
http://tinyurl.com/a2sderv http://tinyurl.com/a3b3bvo
Older toilets had a ball valve instead of a flapper, it did the same thing, but had a brass shaft on top that the chain connected to.
If you want to replace the flush valve, YES, you do need to remove the tank.
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 00:49:06 -0600, snipped-for-privacy@home.com wrote:

Yeah, the flush valve. I didn't know that name. And I've looked all over the web and can't find one like this has. So I'll have to replace the whole thing. Thanks a lot.
Darn. I don't need another project at someone else's house, but I don't think this guy or his parents can do it.
(It also has a filler valve with a brass ball float, but that is all working.
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I've taken apart toilets, and rebuilt them. For me, it wasn't too bad a job. Got the kit at Lowes or HD, and the job went OK. I'd replace the fill valve, and flexible water supply hose while you're working.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
Yeah, the flush valve. I didn't know that name. And I've looked all over the web and can't find one like this has. So I'll have to replace the whole thing. Thanks a lot.
Darn. I don't need another project at someone else's house, but I don't think this guy or his parents can do it.
(It also has a filler valve with a brass ball float, but that is all working.
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If the bolts dont come off, use a hacksaw and cut them. There is a rubber gasket under them, so there is riim to get a hacksaw blade in there. An angle grinder might also work, but the heat will likely make the rubber stink. Just dont hammer on them.
When you reinstall the bolts, always put some silicone on both sides of those rubber gaskets inside the tank. This is not noted in the instructions, this is something I learned after having them leak far too many times by just using the gaskets. DO NOT overtighten the bolts, or the tank could crack and/or gasket will creep out from under the bolt head. Always be sure to remove all the dirt an crud around the bolts and flush valve threaded portion. A little silicone under the flush valve gasket cant hurt either.
I've done lots of these over the years, when I was working for a plumber. These are tricks not normally known.
Good luck.
BTW: Maybe you dont have to replace the entire flush valve. Why not post a photo of what is in that tank first. There were some brand-specific flappers and flush ball setups that were not common, but those parts can be gotten from a plumbing supply, but not always from a hardware store. Maybe you just need one of those parts and can save lots of work.
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:47:07 -0600, snipped-for-privacy@home.com wrote:

So now I have to bring a hacksaw too! Whine.

And maybe an angle grinder!

And silicone. Whine.
I have all these things, but I don't know if he does. Maybe I should just work on my own toilet.

I actually had my cell phone with me, with a camera in it, but it didn't occur to me to take a picture. I guess he could take one and send it to me and I could post it.
There were some

Maybe I should get that picture and show it at the plumbing store. He has a third toilet that I didn't look at, because his wife was lying down in the bedroom already. But if it is the same as the broken one, that would be more reason to try to find easy to install replacement parts. (The third toilet had had the guts replaced with much more recent stuff. Maybe that implies the plumber then couldn't find what I'm looking for.)
Thanks for the good advice, and thanks all.

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I haven't piped in on this one because I don't know much about toilets, either. But when did you decide that you had to pull the tank? I'd start with something like this:
(Amazon.com product link shortened) />/
which you can install in 10 minutes, and see whether it fixes the leak. No need to figure out what old system or combination of systems is in there now, these parts all work together.
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wrote:

Becaue it has nothing resembling what's available for sale now, the opeing from the tank to the bowel, or the vertical plastic pipe that is next to that (the plastic pipe that has the plastic tube going to it at the top).
Instead that vertical pipe is within, going through, what is analogous to the flapper. IOW, the "flapper" has a hole in it. If I take off the "flapper", that is, the donut shaped stopper with a large vertical pipe going up from it, that leaves the smaller vertical plastic pipe centered above the opening into the bowel. And no flapper will fit there, becaue that pipe.is in the way.
If, with a current toilet, one needs to replace the vertical plastic pipe with the opening to the bowl next to it (instead of right below it) one has to take the tank off, since there is a big plastic nut underneat the tank holding it to the tank.
In high school I was supposed to describe how some mechanical device worked, and I chose a cylinder lock like goes in a door. When some classmates read their descriptions they were so clear. One even explained something I'd always wondered about, and even I thoughtt my description of the lock was unclear. I guess 50 years later, I'm not much better, but also, part of the problem, I think, is that you all have never seen one like this and keep trying to relate to what you have seen, I think.
I should get him to send me pictures, or go over myself and get some. .

Thanks. In this one, the url above, , the flapper is held on by a ring that goes around that vertical plastic pipe, OR by going over the two cogs sticking out from each side at the bottom of modern vertical pipes. It won't attach to this toilet. (unless I change the vertical pipe). Currently the pipe is not offset from the opening that the flapper closes. It's right above it.. There is no other place, and no place to the side, to attach the flapper. The current "flapper" is doughnut shapped, or conical doughnut shaped, with the vertical plastic tube going through the middle of it. Attached to the top side of the doughnut is a second plastic tube slightly larger than the one I just mentioned. This second tube goes almost to the top of the tank and when a user lifts the handle, the handle rod lifts a big plastic washer attached at the top of the second tube, which lifts the doughtnut and flushes the toilet.
The probelm is that the outer tube doesn't fall down again. It sticks on something, probably crud in the space between the two tubes. (It may be 50 years old.) Maybe I can take it apart and clean it!!! although I didn't see a way to disassemble it. I'm going to see if I can tie the handle rod to the washer so one can pull the outer tube loose and down without taking the tank lid off. Maybe they'll have to hold the handle down until the water has flushed the bowel Then they can pull the handle up and the rod down unsticking the second tube and making it go down. It will be termporary until I find the parts. So maybe I should go over there and do that and take the pictures at the same time.
Writing my answer has given me a couple ideas.
Thanks again.
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On 12/12/2012 11:50 PM, micky wrote:

I was not following your description very well.
The flapper thing is called a flush valve. There are some very old ones, but there are 2 major styles in current use which are both readily available at Lowes/ HD/ etc:
Korky type: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/flappers.html#korky
Mansfield type: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/mansfield.html
The thing that starts and stops the water is called a fill valve or ball cock: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/toilet-fill-valves.html
--


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That's either becaue I don't write well or because we've never seen one like this before.

This is what I have, though now it's by fluidmaster and before it was by Melnar (sp?) and when I bought my house which is 33 y.o. it had a metal ballcock with a metal float ball.

Models 210 or 211 might work like the one he has --- I can't tell for sure -- , but they don't look that much alike and certainly they're not enough alike to take a part from a new one to fix an old one, so if I have to take off the tank anyhow, I think I'll go with the korky style which is easily avaialbe around here.

Thanks a lot. Wehn I wrork at my house I have all kinds of spare parts and it's closer to the hardware store also. When I'm somewhere else, I don't know what they have and it's a pain to bring everything I might ever need. Plus the last time I fixed something for them, htey seem to have never used it but they didn't tell me what or why. That took a lot of time so I'm going to have to ask them about that.
Thanks and thanks all.
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wrote:

Now that the word "Donut" has been used in this message, the Police will be on alt.home.repair all the time from now on!!!! I hope you're happy with yourself! :)
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On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:42:20 -0600, snipped-for-privacy@home.com wrote:

Not to mention the proctologists.
At least this way if you want to reach t he poice, you know how.
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