I want to put a whole house surge protector in my breaker box. It is a Siemens and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. One is whole house secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge suppressor. What is the difference and which is the better one to get?
Thx Gary
Both do same. Both connect surges 'less than 10 feet' into earth ground if properly installed. However one has a higher joules rating. Therefore would have a longer life expectancy.
See that attached (coiled) wire? A shorter connection to earth means that protector performs better. Critical to protection is how a protector connects to earth.
If new breakers are not needed, then a better alternative may be the attached (higher joule) protector such as Siemens TPSA9040, which is more than 1000 joules. Others that can also attach to a Siemens box include Intermatic and Cutler Hammer with even higher joules ratings. A Cutler Hammer version is sold in Lowes.
Of course, the short connection to earth ground makes a protector effective. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protectors do not provide protection. Every effective protector diverts (connects, shunts) surges harmlessly into earth. Earth ground means energy from direct lightning strikes is harmlessly dissipated without entering the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground =96 which is why some manufactures promote mythical warranties hoping to deceive the na=EFve.
Verify that breaker box earthing both meets and exceeds post 1990 codes and that all incoming utility 'whole house' protectors (such as the required one provided free by the telco) also make a short connection to same earthing. A 'whole house' protector that costs tens or even 100 times less money means everything (including critical items such as the furnace and smoke detectors) are also protected. Even the dishwasher is protected. A $10 recommendation costs more money, does not even claim to protect, and is known to be ineffective when one does not worry about irrelevant nonsense such as top posting. One 'whole house' protector is the least expensive and best protector if properly earthed. Provided are some other and maybe better alternatives. Critically import is the earthing of other surge protected utilities also 'less than 10 feet' to the same earth ground. Ground being the reason why =91whole house=92 protectors are so effective. Higher joules means longer protector life expectancy.
Both do same. Both connect surges 'less than 10 feet' into earth ground if properly installed. However one has a higher joules rating. Therefore would have a longer life expectancy.
See that attached (coiled) wire? A shorter connection to earth means that protector performs better. Critical to protection is how a protector connects to earth.
If new breakers are not needed, then a better alternative may be the attached (higher joule) protector such as Siemens TPSA9040, which is more than 1000 joules. Others that can also attach to a Siemens box include Intermatic and Cutler Hammer with even higher joules ratings. A Cutler Hammer version is sold in Lowes.
Of course, the short connection to earth ground makes a protector effective. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protectors do not provide protection. Every effective protector diverts (connects, shunts) surges harmlessly into earth. Earth ground means energy from direct lightning strikes is harmlessly dissipated without entering the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ? which is why some manufactures promote mythical warranties hoping to deceive the naïve.
Verify that breaker box earthing both meets and exceeds post 1990 codes and that all incoming utility 'whole house' protectors (such as the required one provided free by the telco) also make a short connection to same earthing. A 'whole house' protector that costs tens or even 100 times less money means everything (including critical items such as the furnace and smoke detectors) are also protected. Even the dishwasher is protected. A $10 recommendation costs more money, does not even claim to protect, and is known to be ineffective when one does not worry about irrelevant nonsense such as top posting. One 'whole house' protector is the least expensive and best protector if properly earthed. Provided are some other and maybe better alternatives. Critically import is the earthing of other surge protected utilities also 'less than 10 feet' to the same earth ground. Ground being the reason why ?whole house? protectors are so effective. Higher joules means longer protector life expectancy.
*Exactly. If you have no ground those surge suppressors can be dangerous during a lightning strike. They will absorb the current, but without a place to dissipate it they could explode.Thx Gary
*Here is more info on the Siemens products. The TVSS has a lower clamping voltage.
With no ground, the surge protector is no more or less likely to explode than a circuit breaker, switch, appliance, etc. They don't absorb current, they only pass it along, assuming it has some place to go, ie a ground.
. snipped-for-privacy@newsfe08.iad...
is a Siemens and I can use either a QSA2020 or a QSA2020TVSS. =A0One is who= le house secondary surge arrestor and one is a transient voltage surge supp= ressor. =A0What is the difference and which is the better one to get?
lamping voltage.http://www.mrelectrician.tv/surgeprotectionbasics.html>
nding system for your house. =A0Of course if you had a good grounding syste= m then you may not need the surge suppressors.
How is a good grounding system supposed to eliminate the need for surge suppression? Let's say I have a system with excellent grounding. A lightning strike somewhere on the utility line results in a 2000V surge between hot and neutral/ground. How is a a ground going to take care of that?
How is a good grounding system supposed to eliminate the need for surge suppression? Let's say I have a system with excellent grounding. A lightning strike somewhere on the utility line results in a 2000V surge between hot and neutral/ground. How is a a ground going to take care of that?
*By providing a low resistance path to earth which is where lightning wants to go. When you hear stories of people's appliances getting zapped by lightning it is because it could not find a good low resistance path to earth.Many years ago some friends of mine bought a house several states away from me. The first year that I visited them they told me that their VCR got fried by lightning. The following year they told that lightning killed their computer modem. Two years after that their hot tub took a hit. Since I really loved the hot tub I started looking around in the basement to see what kind of grounding system they had. The house was over 100 years old and the ground rod was an old rusted pipe with a wire strapped to it with a hose clamp. They had a well which came into the house with plastic pipe. There was virtually no grounding system even though the house had been upgraded to circuit breakers and grounded circuits prior to my friend's purchase.
We made a trip to the electrical supply and picked up a ground rod and clamps and some #4 wire which we installed and we bonded everything. That was several years ago and they continue to mention that they have never had a problem with lightning since. The funny thing is they are at the bottom of a hill with high ground all around. It was unlikely that they were getting a direct hit. I told them to call the power company because I surmised that the lines were getting hit somewhere else, but the power company's ground was faulty.
If you would have provided links to information for the suppressors I would have looked. It is not reasonable to expect everyone to find your information.
The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the major organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also:
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001
The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.
w has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection must directly use earthing. Much of what he writes here is to say plug-in suppressors, which do not have his 10 foot path to earth, do not work.
Unfortunately for w the IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by clamping (limiting) the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).
Not just the same earthing. The length of the ground wire connecting phone and cable entry protectors to the ground at the power service should be minimized. Even with a good earth connection, a strong surge can lift the "ground" at the house thousands of volts above "absolute" ground potential. Much of the protection is actually keeping the power and phone and cable wires at the same elevated potential. That requires a short interconnection. A ground wire that is too long is illustrated in the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.
The NIST guide, citing US insurance information, suggests most equipment is damaged by high voltage between power and phone or cable wires.
(If you are using a plug-in suppressor, to limit voltage between wires all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor. And external wires, like phone and cable, also need to go through the same suppressor.)
Service panel suppressors are certainly a good idea. But from the NIST guide: "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."
Service panel suppressors do not prevent high voltages from developing between power and signal wires. To limit the voltage you need a *short* wire connecting the cable/phone entrance protectors to the ground at the power service.
========================
Actually, the worse the earth connection is the lower the energy the suppressor will absorb. The energy absorbed is the voltage across the suppressor (clamp voltage) times the current times the time. The voltage and time are essentially the same. The current will, in theory, decrease as the resistance to earth goes up.
Neither service panel or plug-in suppressors protect by absorbing energy. But both absorb some energy in the process of protecting.
One error in this source is that plug-in suppressors work by earthing a surge through a receptacle ground wire. They don't. They work primarily by clamping the voltage between all wires at the suppressor.
Thank you for that insight. My ground is right below the panel in fact less than 10' by wire route. The house is just about at drywall stage. I will look into those other ones you suggested because my main breaker box is full and I would just be swapping out breakers.
Both do same. Both connect surges 'less than 10 feet' into earth ground if properly installed. However one has a higher joules rating. Therefore would have a longer life expectancy.
See that attached (coiled) wire? A shorter connection to earth means that protector performs better. Critical to protection is how a protector connects to earth.
If new breakers are not needed, then a better alternative may be the attached (higher joule) protector such as Siemens TPSA9040, which is more than 1000 joules. Others that can also attach to a Siemens box include Intermatic and Cutler Hammer with even higher joules ratings. A Cutler Hammer version is sold in Lowes.
Of course, the short connection to earth ground makes a protector effective. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protectors do not provide protection. Every effective protector diverts (connects, shunts) surges harmlessly into earth. Earth ground means energy from direct lightning strikes is harmlessly dissipated without entering the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ? which is why some manufactures promote mythical warranties hoping to deceive the naïve.
Verify that breaker box earthing both meets and exceeds post 1990 codes and that all incoming utility 'whole house' protectors (such as the required one provided free by the telco) also make a short connection to same earthing. A 'whole house' protector that costs tens or even 100 times less money means everything (including critical items such as the furnace and smoke detectors) are also protected. Even the dishwasher is protected. A $10 recommendation costs more money, does not even claim to protect, and is known to be ineffective when one does not worry about irrelevant nonsense such as top posting. One 'whole house' protector is the least expensive and best protector if properly earthed. Provided are some other and maybe better alternatives. Critically import is the earthing of other surge protected utilities also 'less than 10 feet' to the same earth ground. Ground being the reason why ?whole house? protectors are so effective. Higher joules means longer protector life expectancy.
My bad. Here you go...
Thx Gary
*Here is more info on the Siemens products. The TVSS has a lower clamping voltage.Is this the Cutler Hammer one?
Both do same. Both connect surges 'less than 10 feet' into earth ground if properly installed. However one has a higher joules rating. Therefore would have a longer life expectancy.
See that attached (coiled) wire? A shorter connection to earth means that protector performs better. Critical to protection is how a protector connects to earth.
If new breakers are not needed, then a better alternative may be the attached (higher joule) protector such as Siemens TPSA9040, which is more than 1000 joules. Others that can also attach to a Siemens box include Intermatic and Cutler Hammer with even higher joules ratings. A Cutler Hammer version is sold in Lowes.
Of course, the short connection to earth ground makes a protector effective. No earth ground means no effective protection. Protectors do not provide protection. Every effective protector diverts (connects, shunts) surges harmlessly into earth. Earth ground means energy from direct lightning strikes is harmlessly dissipated without entering the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ? which is why some manufactures promote mythical warranties hoping to deceive the naïve.
Verify that breaker box earthing both meets and exceeds post 1990 codes and that all incoming utility 'whole house' protectors (such as the required one provided free by the telco) also make a short connection to same earthing. A 'whole house' protector that costs tens or even 100 times less money means everything (including critical items such as the furnace and smoke detectors) are also protected. Even the dishwasher is protected. A $10 recommendation costs more money, does not even claim to protect, and is known to be ineffective when one does not worry about irrelevant nonsense such as top posting. One 'whole house' protector is the least expensive and best protector if properly earthed. Provided are some other and maybe better alternatives. Critically import is the earthing of other surge protected utilities also 'less than 10 feet' to the same earth ground. Ground being the reason why ?whole house? protectors are so effective. Higher joules means longer protector life expectancy.
CHSPMAX is one type which may be the one sold in Lowes.
Other examples of 'whole house' protectors are:
Telephone line is installed with a 'whole house' protector - for free. And it too is made better by connection to a better earth ground. Cable needs no protector since protection is made by only a wire, short, to that same earthing electrode.
Well, you can add those other protectors. It will marginally increase protection. But better earthing often provides better return on investment.
Voltages - if a protector is rated at 300 volts, that means it actually operates at anywhere from maybe under 200 volts up to 1000 volts. Different surge currents result in that much voltage variation. How to lower a maximum surge voltage? More joules. Increased joules means longer life expectancy AND lower voltage (less energy absorbed by the protector.
Whereas 1000 joules is minimally sufficient for AC mains, 2000 joules is often better for locations with more frequent surge occurrences (ie central FL).
Most people need not go to this extent to make their protectors better. But some example of what some do when surge damage is more frequent:
No problems reading it here. Looks fine on google groups.
New construction, in general, is required to include a "concrete encased electrode" which is commonly called a Ufer ground. It is a good electrode, but does not provide equipotential.
Doesn't need a protector? The IEEE guide says "there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~2?4 kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning." (A plug-in suppressor will limit the voltage from core to shield.)
w has a fetish about earthing. Even with a very good 10 ohms-to-earth resistance, a strong surge resulting in 1000A to earth will lift the "ground" at the house 10,000V above "absolute" earth potential.
Francois Martzloff, who was the NIST guru on surges and wrote the NIST guide, has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system." Meaning the phone and cable entry protectors must connect with a short wire to the "ground" at the power service. Much of the protection is that the power and phone and cable wires all float up to the same 10,000V.
I would choose the QSA2020TVSS. It is a TVSS (transient voltage surge suppressor). Most suppressors are TVSSs. [The term "TVSS" is being replaced by "SPD" - surge protective device].
The QSA2020 is a "secondary surge arrester".
The warrantee on the QSA2020TVSS includes devices not included in for the QSA2020. (The text says "Hard wired appliances, including refrigerators, freezers, ... washers, ... dryers, ...." none of which are normally hard wired - probably a mistake.)
For comparing suppressors w correctly says that the energy (Joule) rating indicates the life of the device. While that is quite true, both guides warn that there is no standard for measuring the Joule rating, and unless the same test method is used the specs are not comparable. Because some manufacturers fudge the specs, some other very good manufacturers, unfortunately, no longer provide Joule ratings.
============================================= The Siemens site includes: "combined use of quality protectors at the building entrance, and appropriate plug-in protectors at the point of use can virtually eliminate all damage from lightning and surges."
Yet another source that disputes poor w's crackpot ideas about plug-in suppressors.
So since Agent sucks everyone should adjust their newsreaders.
The standard here is for the cribber to put a metal plate with a rod on it (about 12" x 8" and about 3/8" thick under the basement footing with the rod sticking out to connect the ground to. I have an electrical wiring book (I wired the house myself) and the fellow in it says he always puts two (or more) grounding points. He also said he tries to find moist ground. So while I was trenching in my weeping tile and sump pit (my pit is 7' deep ) I pushed a 10' electrode rod into the ground about 8" away from the sump pit and tied the grounds together. I think this makes for good ground.
CHSPMAX is one type which may be the one sold in Lowes.
Other examples of 'whole house' protectors are:
Telephone line is installed with a 'whole house' protector - for free. And it too is made better by connection to a better earth ground. Cable needs no protector since protection is made by only a wire, short, to that same earthing electrode.
Well, you can add those other protectors. It will marginally increase protection. But better earthing often provides better return on investment.
Voltages - if a protector is rated at 300 volts, that means it actually operates at anywhere from maybe under 200 volts up to 1000 volts. Different surge currents result in that much voltage variation. How to lower a maximum surge voltage? More joules. Increased joules means longer life expectancy AND lower voltage (less energy absorbed by the protector.
Whereas 1000 joules is minimally sufficient for AC mains, 2000 joules is often better for locations with more frequent surge occurrences (ie central FL).
Most people need not go to this extent to make their protectors better. But some example of what some do when surge damage is more frequent:
That is odd. I have Outlook not Outlook Express, but either way I can not find a setting for word wrap. I have been posting with Outlook for probably
10 years and have never had anyone complain about my wordwrap.
Gary, I would suggest reading this web page. It has a good explanation of problems you may cause when posting to Usenet.
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