What are these plumbing things called?

[basilisk]

I think the real problem is overcoming the 760,000 pounds of force to insert the plug.

22 inch pipe at 2000 estimated psi.

basilisk

[trader4]

That type of plug is used on pools to winterize them and at least for that application they are called pool plugs or pool expansion plugs.

As for why you can't just shove one into a large oil pipe 5,000 feet under the sea, I think the above answer covers it. I haven't done the math, but with such a large plug area, any reasonable amount of PSI pressure is going to exert a huge force on the plug. You can insert a 2" plug into a drain line, but try inserting that into a water pipe that is spewing water at even 50psi where you have easy access. And on the ocean floor, what is a robot supposed to hold onto to keep it from just being pushed away?

That's why they used a plug type arrangement with a smaller pipe in the middle, so the oil and gas can flow while the apparatus is being put in place, greatly reducing the force.

[HeyBub]

The rig exploded, burnt, fell over, and sank.

Five thousand feet of 21" pipe toppled over like a giant, semi-flexible, redwood.

The pipe broke and ruptured in at least three places.

The END of the pipe is probably not square, but jagged, bent, and deformed. The other (at least) two breaks are certainly irregular and probably buried under several hundred feet of collapsed pipe.

I'm sure BP will give your suggestion all the attention it deserves and I applaud your diligence of your diligence in determining the name of the device to use rather than insisting BP "employ one of those gizmos used to plug holes in the bottom of a rowboat."

"Expandable plug" will go a long way in adding authenticity and expertise to your suggestion.

[Frank]

Every hillbilly out there thinks he has the answer. There's a cute one about absorbing the oil with straw ;)

[retired]

What are these plumbing things called? Yea, I know they're a plug, but what's the actual name?

They're a rubber device with a bolt in the middle. When the nut is tightened on the bolt, the rubber expands to form a tight seal inside a pipe. I've seen them used for basement floor drains, during flooding. Also used for temporary plugs in any pipes. I've also seen them sold for boating. I dont know much about boating, but I assume they are some sort of plug for the bottom of the boat.

I'm asking this because I cant understand why this method has not been tried on the BP oil pipe in the ocean. It's a 20 inch pipe, as I saw on the news. Why cant they make a 20" plug of this type, and their robots can tighten the nut. Why is this so difficult? Seems that the BP company workers are all total idiots. They stuck what looks to be a 6" pipe in the hole. Like what the f__k is that going to do. Sure, they're getting some of the oil up that pipe, but think about this. They had to make and install one mile of pipe, and it only solved a small percentage of the problem. It took them weeks to do this, and it's not doing much good. Wouldn't it have been easier to take down a

20 inch plug that probably weighs 50 lbs at most, and tighten a nut. Seems to make much more sense than one mile of pipe that probably weighs many tons.

Anyhow, what are these plugs called? As soon as I know, I'm going to find who manufactures them, and see if they can make something to help. Relying on BP is about the same thing as a doctor putting a bandage on the finger of someone who just had a heart attack. Since BP has proven they are completely illiterate, the time has come for all of us to find a solution. If we keep relying on the idiots from BP, pretty soon we'll all be affected.

[Bob F]

Test plug?

It would take quite a plug to stop that pressure, and quite a machine to put it into place.

[HeyBub]

Upon further reflection, your suggestion reminds me of one I encountered some years ago.

During the Viet Nam war, a backwoods citizen learned of the problems our military was having with tunnel-bound VC. Knowing nothing about warfare, but an expert on rabbits, and knowing less than nothing about the chain of command but having met his local congressman, he sent a tip to his representative. His plan was to have the military loose a wild rabbit in the jungle. The rabbit would take off like a, well, scared rabbit. The soldiers would then loose the dogs. The rabbit would zip down the nearest hole, the dogs would gather 'round the hole and bark, the soldiers would approach the dogs and discover the entrance to a Viet Cong tunnel complex.

The congressman's aide, evidently not reading the letter, but noting the words "Viet Nam" sent the letter to the Congressional liason officer to the Pentagon. That liason officer, also not reading the letter, dropped it in the inner-office mail where it eventually came to rest and the following response was generated (paraphrasing):

Dear Congressman (blank)

I have at hand a copy of the letter sent to you by your constituent (blank) in which he suggests using wild rabbis in Viet Nam. The military does not currently use wild rabbits in Viet Nam, but we have been using dogs - mostly in security applications - for some time with excellent results.

Early last year, a study was conducted on the viability of using wild rabbits in Viet Nam. While the conclusions of that study remain classified, I can report that the United States Military Command Wild Rabbit Training Facility was opened in San Diego to take advantage of the language school located at the San Diego Naval Base.

The facility began with five hutches, three does, and two bucks. The number of rabbits currently enrolled changes every second, but the hutch facility now extends as far east as Fort Worth, Texas.

We are currently looking for a Director, U.S. Military Command Wild Rabbit Training Facility. The only qualification for this position is that the applicant be able to think like a rabbit. I would like to nominate your constitute (blank) for the job.

Also needed is an Assistant Director, U.S. Military Command Wild Rabbit Training Facility. The only requirement for this position is the ability to think like a carrot! I strongly urge the numbskull in your office who forwarded (blank's) suggestion.

Very cordially yours,

Leonard F. Chapman, General Commandant, United States Marine Corps

[LSMFT]

What the need to do use a blow-out preventer that is not broken. It HAS a rubber plug that is operated by hydraulic to block the flow. The plug was destroyed in a test. The backup hydraulic pump was broken and a hydraulic ram was missing. Talk about stupid engineers!

There are any number of ways they could have stopped the blowout. They could have used a portable hydraulic clamp with the ROV to squeeze the pipe shut. They could have cut off the pipe just above the BOP and slipped another pipe over the old one and clamped it in place or an air balloon seal. They are the most incompetent bunch I have ever seen. Shows you what the engineering schools are graduating now-a-days.

[Hustlin' Hank]

I thought the pipe was much smaller, like 4-6". I also think the outside forces (forces exerted on an object at 6000ft below sea level) are somewhere around 6K psi. I don't think the pressure inside the pipe is quite as high as you guess. On another factor is the weight of the water IF it were contained in a pipe to the surface. Anyway, the oil is normally PUMPED out of the well because the pressure in the well is unable to overcome the lift required to bring it to the surface.

Since it is ruptured, it is flowing out at a minimum pressure and then surfacing.

That is the way I understand it, but I could be wrong in many ways.

Hank

[basilisk]

I thought the pipe was much smaller, like 4-6". I also think the outside forces (forces exerted on an object at 6000ft below sea level) are somewhere around 6K psi. I don't think the pressure inside the pipe is quite as high as you guess. On another factor is the weight of the water IF it were contained in a pipe to the surface. Anyway, the oil is normally PUMPED out of the well because the pressure in the well is unable to overcome the lift required to bring it to the surface.

Since it is ruptured, it is flowing out at a minimum pressure and then surfacing.

That is the way I understand it, but I could be wrong in many ways.

Hank

I got the pipe size and psi from news reports, but TV news reports aren't noted for their accuracy, who knows?

basilisk

[dpb]

Hustlin' Hank wrote: ...

Well, the pressure has to be larger than the static head or that would be sufficient to prevent flow other than diffusion/displacement by differential density. That clearly isn't the case from the video and size of the flow.

As another says, those are reported numbers I've seen as well; what, specifically they have to do w/ reality is also as he notes anybody's guess....

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[terry]

Well a 20 inch plug has an area of around 310 square inches. Pi x R squared! The pressure of the oil and gas coming out of the broken well must be considerable in water of a depth of say 5000 feet. Many times atmospheric pressure anyway lets say it's only a 1000 pounds per square inch? (That's way too conservative by the way).

So with a pressure of around 300,000 pounds on the plug it's not the kind of thing where you hold it in place with one hand while tightening the expanding bolt with the other hand. All while kneeling on the basement or kitchen floor!

One would however imagine the much maligned engineers have figured that out? But it is true that sometimes the best ideas are the simplest!

Usually the problem with these situations is not only the technology but the managerial ethics and political will to do the right thing and spend the money and resources, beforehand, to avoid a problem in the first place. This spillage should never have happened. But it and BPs attitude makes one wonder about other wells, and oil industry practices and procedures!

And, considering regulation! Just look at the countries that are recovering nicely (Australia, Canada, China, India and others) from the financial problems caused by the bad credit crisis! It is those that have tough and enforced 'Banking regulations'!

Same with the oil industry there is too much emphasis on the bottom line profit and executive bonuses and maybe lobbying? Somewhere along the line the welfare of everybody else involved, included other users and residents, immediately in this case, the residents, fishers, tourist industry employees of those coastal areas get lost in the scramble.

In the longer term that's all of us; I'm certainly not going anywhere near Florida, for example, if there are oiled beaches and oil slicks fouling my boat!

[Bob F]

The pipe they inserted into the leaking well is 4" in diameter. The well pipe is much larger. The pressure from the weight of the water is the same whether it is in a pipe or not.. When the water has been displaced by oil, then the pressure will be less.

[Oren]

_Kevin Costner may hold key to oil spill cleanup_

"The actor has invested 15 years and $24 million in a cleanup system involving centrifugal oil separators. BP and the Coast Guard plan to test six of the machines on the spill next week."

.."The machines are essentially like big vacuum cleaners, which sit on barges and suck up oily water and spin it around at high speed," Houghtaling said. "On one side, it spits out pure oil, which can be recovered. The other side spits out 99% pure water."

[trader4]

.

It's not the absolute pressure that matters. It's the relative pressure difference between the well and the water at the bottom of the sea.

[norminn]

I'm puzzled that BP...BRITISH Petroleum...hasn't gotten any flak from the British gov't., or the Brit's from the US. At least I haven't heard of it. Is the gusher in international waters? How far out are US, or state waters?

[Harry K]

...

Exactlyl. All that gas and oil needs is at least 1 psi above whatever the water pressure is down there. It appears that it is much higher than that pressure though.

Harry K

[mm]

I agree with your answer but not your multiplication. Assuming your numbers are right, 2000 x 22 x pi = 138,000 pounds.

Still too much, I'm sure. Compare how easy it is to close off part of a garden hose with your thumb versus the whole thing. OTOH, the OP's point is that his plug is smaller than the hole when put in, and would be likea thumb closing off part of hose. I guess the high pressure is still the problem

Not that I have a better suggestion but I don't like relying on BP to do this. They seem to have put all their energy into avoiding a leak and little into what to do about it if one occured.

And the OP is right, the current pipe is only about 6 inches in a 22 inch pipe, but i think it was actually 4 inches.

[basilisk]

it would psi*pi*radius squared.

2000 X 3.1459 X (11 X 11) =761,307.8 My information may be bad, but not my math.

basilisk

[dpb]

mm wrote: ...

...

pi.D is circumference, not area...

pi.r^2 = A --> 121*3+ --> > ~360*2000 = >~720klb-f

The question is what is the differential pressure at the wellhead -- what are the numbers being bandied about in the press???? There's no way of telling and there's probably not a reporter or reporterette in a

1000 that would have a clue if you told 'em... :(

This beating up on BP is simply populist Monday-morning qb'ing for the consumption of the press and populace.

There does seem to have been some culpability in the operations but before the full incident review it's certainly too early to say for sure who or what was root cause.

I've little doubt there's not much any of the gov't "experts" in FEMA or HSA or any other agency know or have experience in that will outpace that of BP production combined w/ Halliburton and their contractors. These aren't "johnny come latelies" to the party.

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