Water pipes for washing machine

[Horatio Hornblower]

I'm installing a washing machine in my old house (1910). The laundry room has the water heater and has the plumbing for a washer, but that plumbing hasn't been used for probably 25 years or more. I hooked it up and turned on the valves and wasn't shocked to find them leaking. I replaced them but see that the cold water pipe has strangely low pressure.

The hot water spigot puts out around 5 gallons/minute, but the cold one is delivering a bit less than 1 gallon/minute. At first, the cold one's water was rusty, but that cleared up in a few seconds. However, it continues to be very low pressure. I figure there must be a lot of rust somewhere in the last 3 or 4 feet, because it splits just before that, one branch going to the washer, the other to an outdoor faucet, which has good pressure.

I figure the problem's probably in the elbows and not the 3 foot straight, and I can just swap out the elbows and it'll be OK.

It's funny, though. There are TWO spigots for the hot and TWO spigots for the cold! Each pair has one with a threaded spigot (you can screw on a threaded hose to it), and one that's not threaded. What's the purpose of those? I figure maybe they used to have systems which you connected by pressure (clamps) and not threads. Is that it? Can or should I remove those non-thread-ended spigots? I could get some 1/2 inch plugs for those.

Thanks for any advice here. I haven't done a lot of plumbing.

hh

[Speedy Jim]

You're on the right track. In 1910, the piping would have been galvanized iron. An un-used branch will rapidly get blocked with corrosion. My bet is that the TEE leading outside is blocked at the branch outlet. Replacing it or tampering with that century-old piping is inviting disaster.

Instead, suggest running brand new pipe (copper?) right off the water heater connections. Less chance of disturbing things plus better assurance that the clothes won't be rusty.

Jim

[Horatio Hornblower]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:03:25 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote:

:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :> I'm installing a washing machine in my old house (1910). The laundry :> room has the water heater and has the plumbing for a washer, but that :> plumbing hasn't been used for probably 25 years or more. I hooked it up :> and turned on the valves and wasn't shocked to find them leaking. I :> replaced them but see that the cold water pipe has strangely low :> pressure. :> :> The hot water spigot puts out around 5 gallons/minute, but the cold one :> is delivering a bit less than 1 gallon/minute. At first, the cold one's :> water was rusty, but that cleared up in a few seconds. However, it :> continues to be very low pressure. I figure there must be a lot of rust :> somewhere in the last 3 or 4 feet, because it splits just before that, :> one branch going to the washer, the other to an outdoor faucet, which :> has good pressure. :> :> I figure the problem's probably in the elbows and not the 3 foot :> straight, and I can just swap out the elbows and it'll be OK. :> :> It's funny, though. There are TWO spigots for the hot and TWO spigots :> for the cold! Each pair has one with a threaded spigot (you can screw on :> a threaded hose to it), and one that's not threaded. What's the purpose :> of those? I figure maybe they used to have systems which you connected :> by pressure (clamps) and not threads. Is that it? Can or should I remove :> those non-thread-ended spigots? I could get some 1/2 inch plugs for :> those. :> :> Thanks for any advice here. I haven't done a lot of plumbing. :> :> hh : :You're on the right track. In 1910, the piping would have been :galvanized iron. An un-used branch will rapidly get blocked :with corrosion. My bet is that the TEE leading outside is blocked :at the branch outlet. Replacing it or tampering with that century-old :piping is inviting disaster. : :Instead, suggest running brand new pipe (copper?) right off the water :heater connections. Less chance of disturbing things plus better :assurance that the clothes won't be rusty. : :Jim

Thanks, Jim. This is the cold water, though. The hot seems OK, at least as far as flow goes. I didn't notice rust coming from the hot, either, for some reason, just the cold. I'm going to launch a whole-house renovation pretty shortly, so I'll leave wholesale replacement of the plumbing (at least the decisions) to my general contractor. Right now I just want to get my washer working. I think I can either replace or clean out that last 3-4 feet that's clearly clogged up. I've always been a DIY guy, so once again I'm looking for a way to do it myself rather than pick up the phone and bring in a professional. I know that mentality has to be tempered sensibly if I'm going to succeed in my whole-house renovation. So much of it is just way over my head and skill level.

I had an interesting idea yesterday, but I sort of doubt it will work:

If I shut off the water to the house, open that outside faucet and the washer spigot, and connect a hose to the washer cold water spigot (the one that gets the 1/6 water flow), and run some high pressure water through that hose (I'd have to get permission from my neighbor to hook up a hose to their garden spigot), I might be able to blow out the corrosion that's clogging it up. It's a bit of a long shot, but if gravity has a hand in this, the water flowing down instead of up, may be enough to dislodge whatever's in there and flush it out my outside spigot. Nutty idea, huh?

hh

[Speedy Jim]

The rusty corrosion in there is typically very hard; you won't likely flush it out. I was suggesting tapping off the Cold side of the water heater, only because it was right in that room. If you want a temp fix, cut in a TEE with a hose tap (aka boiler drain) and run a long hose to the washer.

A word of caution (which has been discussed at length here before) when the contractor does the major re-piping: It was very common in 1910 to use the Cold water piping as the grounding means for outlet/switch boxes and fixtures, especially in baths, kitchens.

If you abandon the old galv iron, you could wind up with no ground on those boxes. If there will be a re-wire of everything, then it's a moot point, but worth considering.

Jim

[jim]

turn water off at main valve.. remove the cold water faucet(it is catching all the trash-water deposits that were in the pipes.. have a bucket of water under the pipe and then turn water back on and the trash will fill up the bucket.. and then the water will flow at 100 % of flow.. cut off water and put faucet back on and check to see if it is running at 100 %....

[Chris Lewis]

According to jim :

Maybe.

In the cases I've seen, the iron pipe seems to have "grown" encrustation on the inside, leading to an increasingly restricted flow. Ie: half inch pipe with only a 1/8" in diameter hole thru the middle. No way you could ream that out. It certainly won't flush out. If you get too violent with the pipe (ie: trying to power ream it), you'll puncture it.

Effectively the iron rusted in place and "expanded" to fill the inside of the pipe.

Maybe it's just a plugged screen (had that happen with ours).

Anything is worth a try, but, don't bet on it.

If the pipe is bad enough, taking off the water faucet will either be impossible, _or_, break the pipe. So be prepared for _anything_ once you start fooling around with old iron pipe.

[Like the time the friend of mine turned the water off for a few apartment units so he could replace a sink. After spending a whole day trying to replace the iron pipe he broke, he broke the valve when he tried to turn the water back on... Big mess...]

[Horatio Hornblower]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:53:10 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote:

:Horatio Hornblower wrote: : :> I had an interesting idea yesterday, but I sort of doubt it will work: :> :> If I shut off the water to the house, open that outside faucet and the :> washer spigot, and connect a hose to the washer cold water spigot (the :> one that gets the 1/6 water flow), and run some high pressure water :> through that hose (I'd have to get permission from my neighbor to hook :> up a hose to their garden spigot), I might be able to blow out the :> corrosion that's clogging it up. It's a bit of a long shot, but if :> gravity has a hand in this, the water flowing down instead of up, may be :> enough to dislodge whatever's in there and flush it out my outside :> spigot. Nutty idea, huh? : : The rusty corrosion in there is typically very hard; you won't : likely flush it out. : I was suggesting tapping off the Cold side of the water heater, : only because it was right in that room. : If you want a temp fix, cut in a TEE with a hose tap (aka boiler :drain) : and run a long hose to the washer. : : A word of caution (which has been discussed at length here before) : when the contractor does the major re-piping: It was very common : in 1910 to use the Cold water piping as the grounding means for : outlet/switch boxes and fixtures, especially in baths, kitchens. : : If you abandon the old galv iron, you could wind up with no : ground on those boxes. If there will be a re-wire of everything, : then it's a moot point, but worth considering. : :Jim

Thanks, Jim. Tomorrow, when the weather's dry, I plan on removing that last 3-4 feet of that cold water run and replace it. I figure the straight (it's about 3 feet) will probably be OK, so it's the elbows I'll replace. If some of it seems OK, I may keep what's OK and just replace the obvious bad part.

Interesting what you say about the ground. That outside spigot that branches off of this pipe 3-4 feet back actually has a ground that I created several years ago. I connected a wire to it and ran it directly to an outlet so I could ground a surge suppressor that I plugged all my electronics into. None of the outlets in the house were grounded, in spite of the fact that many of them have ground (3 prong outlets).

The planned renovation certainly includes new electric service and a rewire of the house, so I presume and would hope that adequate grounding of 3 prong outlets will be done. In fact, I'm hoping to install a whole house surge suppressor at the service.

If my plans for fixing the low flow condition are stymied someone, I'll consider your tap of the cold water from the water heater idea. Thanks again!

hh

[Horatio Hornblower]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 16:56:15 GMT, jim wrote:

:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:03:25 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote: :> :> :Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :>

:> :> I'm installing a washing machine in my old house (1910). The laundry :> :> room has the water heater and has the plumbing for a washer, but that :> :> plumbing hasn't been used for probably 25 years or more. I hooked it up :> :> and turned on the valves and wasn't shocked to find them leaking. I :> :> replaced them but see that the cold water pipe has strangely low :> :> pressure. :> :>

:> :> The hot water spigot puts out around 5 gallons/minute, but the cold one :> :> is delivering a bit less than 1 gallon/minute. At first, the cold one's :> :> water was rusty, but that cleared up in a few seconds. However, it :> :> continues to be very low pressure. I figure there must be a lot of rust :> :> somewhere in the last 3 or 4 feet, because it splits just before that, :> :> one branch going to the washer, the other to an outdoor faucet, which :> :> has good pressure. :> :>

:> :> I figure the problem's probably in the elbows and not the 3 foot :> :> straight, and I can just swap out the elbows and it'll be OK. :> :>

:> :> It's funny, though. There are TWO spigots for the hot and TWO spigots :> :> for the cold! Each pair has one with a threaded spigot (you can screw on :> :> a threaded hose to it), and one that's not threaded. What's the purpose :> :> of those? I figure maybe they used to have systems which you connected :> :> by pressure (clamps) and not threads. Is that it? Can or should I remove :> :> those non-thread-ended spigots? I could get some 1/2 inch plugs for :> :> those. :> :>

:> :> Thanks for any advice here. I haven't done a lot of plumbing. :> :>

:> :> hh :> : :> :You're on the right track. In 1910, the piping would have been :> :galvanized iron. An un-used branch will rapidly get blocked :> :with corrosion. My bet is that the TEE leading outside is blocked :> :at the branch outlet. Replacing it or tampering with that century-old :> :piping is inviting disaster. :> : :> :Instead, suggest running brand new pipe (copper?) right off the water :> :heater connections. Less chance of disturbing things plus better :> :assurance that the clothes won't be rusty. :> : :> :Jim :> :> Thanks, Jim. This is the cold water, though. The hot seems OK, at least :> as far as flow goes. I didn't notice rust coming from the hot, either, :> for some reason, just the cold. I'm going to launch a whole-house :> renovation pretty shortly, so I'll leave wholesale replacement of the :> plumbing (at least the decisions) to my general contractor. Right now I :> just want to get my washer working. I think I can either replace or :> clean out that last 3-4 feet that's clearly clogged up. I've always been :> a DIY guy, so once again I'm looking for a way to do it myself rather :> than pick up the phone and bring in a professional. I know that :> mentality has to be tempered sensibly if I'm going to succeed in my :> whole-house renovation. So much of it is just way over my head and skill :> level. :> :> I had an interesting idea yesterday, but I sort of doubt it will work: :> :> If I shut off the water to the house, open that outside faucet and the :> washer spigot, and connect a hose to the washer cold water spigot (the :> one that gets the 1/6 water flow), and run some high pressure water :> through that hose (I'd have to get permission from my neighbor to hook :> up a hose to their garden spigot), I might be able to blow out the :> corrosion that's clogging it up. It's a bit of a long shot, but if :> gravity has a hand in this, the water flowing down instead of up, may be :> enough to dislodge whatever's in there and flush it out my outside :> spigot. Nutty idea, huh? :> :> hh :turn water off at main valve.. remove the cold water faucet(it is :catching all the trash-water deposits that were in the pipes.. have a :bucket of water under the pipe and then turn water back on and the :trash will fill up the bucket.. and then the water will flow at 100 % :of flow.. cut off water and put faucet back on and check to see if it :is running at 100 %....

Cool idea. I will try that. Thanks!!

[Horatio Hornblower]

On 2 Feb 2004 16:30:31 GMT, [e-mail] (Chris Lewis) wrote:

:According to jim : : :> turn water off at main valve.. remove the cold water faucet(it is :> catching all the trash-water deposits that were in the pipes.. have a :> bucket of water under the pipe and then turn water back on and the :> trash will fill up the bucket.. and then the water will flow at 100 % :> of flow.. cut off water and put faucet back on and check to see if it :> is running at 100 %.... : :Maybe. : :In the cases I've seen, the iron pipe seems to have "grown" encrustation :on the inside, leading to an increasingly restricted flow. Ie: half inch :pipe with only a 1/8" in diameter hole thru the middle. No way you :could ream that out. It certainly won't flush out. If you get too violent :with the pipe (ie: trying to power ream it), you'll puncture it. : :Effectively the iron rusted in place and "expanded" to fill the inside :of the pipe. : :Maybe it's just a plugged screen (had that happen with ours). : :Anything is worth a try, but, don't bet on it. : :If the pipe is bad enough, taking off the water faucet will either be :impossible, _or_, break the pipe. So be prepared for _anything_ once :you start fooling around with old iron pipe. : :[Like the time the friend of mine turned the water off for a few :apartment units so he could replace a sink. After spending a whole :day trying to replace the iron pipe he broke, he broke the valve :when he tried to turn the water back on... Big mess...]

Appreciate all this! Especially the be_prepared_for_anything proviso. That's one reason I didn't get on this Friday. I want to do it at the beginning or middle of the weak when all the stores are going to be open!

Your mentioning a plugged screen reminds me of another question I had:

This washer I'm installing is used. It came with hoses (hot and cold), but I'd read some posts about how you should be very careful about these hoses and replace them periodically or which better hoses. So, I picked up a couple of stainless wrapped washer hoses at Home Depot. The ones that came with the washer were just rubber. However, they look OK. But I still thought it would be a good investment to get the stainless wound ones. The old ones have a very fine removeable screen on one end. I could remove them and put them on the new hoses. Is that a good idea?

Thing is, I periodically have to clean out my shower head because very small pebbles (a little larger than grains of sand) clog the shower head. It takes a few months before my shower flow gets noticeably depleted. I figure this means that my washer hoses' filters (should I chose to insert those) will likewise need to be cleaned once in a while. Why would I want to have those inline, anyway?

Thanks for the help, people!

hh

[Chris Lewis]

According to Horatio Hornblower :

Having them inline is the only way they're going to strain out the bits. ;-)

Is it adviseable? Mebe yes, mebe no.

Most people will insist on putting the screens in with some notion about how the washer will stain clothing without them, or somehow the washer valves get damaged.

IMO, it depends on what the grit _is_, and how big the lumps are.

We had strainers on ours. Every 3-4 months the cold side (and only the cold side) would plug up with fine grit. I got tired of that, and despite other's notions of "damage to the valves", I simply removed the one on the cold side.

No trouble since.

If the chunks can be largish, yes, they could jam/scar up the valves. If the chunks are insoluable salts, or chunks of iron/iron oxide etc, yes, it could stain up your clothes.

We're on a well. No iron problems. Low-to-moderate hardness. The grit is simply a few stray very fine sand grains. The sand grains go thru the washer without jamming the valves or staining the clothing. So, what do we need 'em for?

This is something you should assess for yourself with what you know about your water quality.

[Horatio Hornblower]

On 3 Feb 2004 18:01:05 GMT, [e-mail] (Chris Lewis) wrote:

:According to Horatio Hornblower : :> But I :> still thought it would be a good investment to get the stainless wound :> ones. The old ones have a very fine removeable screen on one end. I :> could remove them and put them on the new hoses. Is that a good idea? : :Having them inline is the only way they're going to strain out the bits. ;-) : :Is it adviseable? Mebe yes, mebe no. : :Most people will insist on putting the screens in with some notion about :how the washer will stain clothing without them, or somehow the washer :valves get damaged. : :IMO, it depends on what the grit _is_, and how big the lumps are. : :We had strainers on ours. Every 3-4 months the cold side (and only :the cold side) would plug up with fine grit. I got tired of that, :and despite other's notions of "damage to the valves", I simply removed :the one on the cold side. : :No trouble since. : :If the chunks can be largish, yes, they could jam/scar up the valves. :If the chunks are insoluable salts, or chunks of iron/iron oxide etc, :yes, it could stain up your clothes. : :We're on a well. No iron problems. Low-to-moderate hardness. The grit :is simply a few stray very fine sand grains. The sand grains go thru the :washer without jamming the valves or staining the clothing. So, what :do we need 'em for? : :This is something you should assess for yourself with what you know about :your water quality. Thanks, Chris. My water is Berkeley, CA water. Well, it goes through a certain set of pipes to get into my house, so in that respect it's different. The water here isn't particularly hard, or so I'm told.

There was a busted pipe here under the front lawn around 10-15 years ago

- I noticed a soggy spot and called the property management, and they fixed it. I since bought the house (4 years ago). It's a real old house (like I say, 1910), so I guess the age of the pipes is a consideration.

If I notice any rust stains on my clothes I guess I'll put in those filters and check them every few months like you used to do. The washer (and dryer, which I'll install later) are used and a number of years old. If the valves are damaged it's not as big a tragedy as if it were a new machine. How would you know the valves had sustained damage?

Tomorrow's probably the day I first get this thing installed finally.

[Chris Lewis]

According to Horatio Hornblower :

If the pipes are throwing rust to any great degree, the screens won't do any good. Yeah, the screens will stop the lumps, but not the really fine stuff.

If the valves leak or malfunction. Ie: the water should stop if the power is off, and you should be able to control the temperature of the wash water.

[Horatio Hornblower]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:35:59 GMT, Horatio Hornblower wrote:

:On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 16:56:15 GMT, jim wrote: : ::Horatio Hornblower wrote: ::> ::> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:03:25 -0500, Speedy Jim wrote: ::> ::> :Horatio Hornblower wrote: ::> :>

::> :> I'm installing a washing machine in my old house (1910). The laundry ::> :> room has the water heater and has the plumbing for a washer, but that ::> :> plumbing hasn't been used for probably 25 years or more. I hooked it up ::> :> and turned on the valves and wasn't shocked to find them leaking. I ::> :> replaced them but see that the cold water pipe has strangely low ::> :> pressure. ::> :>

::> :> The hot water spigot puts out around 5 gallons/minute, but the cold one ::> :> is delivering a bit less than 1 gallon/minute. At first, the cold one's ::> :> water was rusty, but that cleared up in a few seconds. However, it ::> :> continues to be very low pressure. I figure there must be a lot of rust ::> :> somewhere in the last 3 or 4 feet, because it splits just before that, ::> :> one branch going to the washer, the other to an outdoor faucet, which ::> :> has good pressure. ::> :>

::> :> I figure the problem's probably in the elbows and not the 3 foot ::> :> straight, and I can just swap out the elbows and it'll be OK. ::> :>

::> :> It's funny, though. There are TWO spigots for the hot and TWO spigots ::> :> for the cold! Each pair has one with a threaded spigot (you can screw on ::> :> a threaded hose to it), and one that's not threaded. What's the purpose ::> :> of those? I figure maybe they used to have systems which you connected ::> :> by pressure (clamps) and not threads. Is that it? Can or should I remove ::> :> those non-thread-ended spigots? I could get some 1/2 inch plugs for ::> :> those. ::> :>

::> :> Thanks for any advice here. I haven't done a lot of plumbing. ::> :>

::> :> hh ::> : ::> :You're on the right track. In 1910, the piping would have been ::> :galvanized iron. An un-used branch will rapidly get blocked ::> :with corrosion. My bet is that the TEE leading outside is blocked ::> :at the branch outlet. Replacing it or tampering with that century-old ::> :piping is inviting disaster. ::> : ::> :Instead, suggest running brand new pipe (copper?) right off the water ::> :heater connections. Less chance of disturbing things plus better ::> :assurance that the clothes won't be rusty. ::> : ::> :Jim ::> ::> Thanks, Jim. This is the cold water, though. The hot seems OK, at least ::> as far as flow goes. I didn't notice rust coming from the hot, either, ::> for some reason, just the cold. I'm going to launch a whole-house ::> renovation pretty shortly, so I'll leave wholesale replacement of the ::> plumbing (at least the decisions) to my general contractor. Right now I ::> just want to get my washer working. I think I can either replace or ::> clean out that last 3-4 feet that's clearly clogged up. I've always been ::> a DIY guy, so once again I'm looking for a way to do it myself rather ::> than pick up the phone and bring in a professional. I know that ::> mentality has to be tempered sensibly if I'm going to succeed in my ::> whole-house renovation. So much of it is just way over my head and skill ::> level. ::> ::> I had an interesting idea yesterday, but I sort of doubt it will work: ::> ::> If I shut off the water to the house, open that outside faucet and the ::> washer spigot, and connect a hose to the washer cold water spigot (the ::> one that gets the 1/6 water flow), and run some high pressure water ::> through that hose (I'd have to get permission from my neighbor to hook ::> up a hose to their garden spigot), I might be able to blow out the ::> corrosion that's clogging it up. It's a bit of a long shot, but if ::> gravity has a hand in this, the water flowing down instead of up, may be ::> enough to dislodge whatever's in there and flush it out my outside ::> spigot. Nutty idea, huh? ::> ::> hh ::turn water off at main valve.. remove the cold water faucet(it is ::catching all the trash-water deposits that were in the pipes.. have a ::bucket of water under the pipe and then turn water back on and the ::trash will fill up the bucket.. and then the water will flow at 100 % ::of flow.. cut off water and put faucet back on and check to see if it ::is running at 100 %.... : :Cool idea. I will try that. Thanks!!

Unfortunately, it didn't work. Tomorrow I'll disassemble the last 3-4 feet of pipe going to the washer. I'm sure that's where the jam-up is, since the branch off to the outside spigot runs free, and that's 4 feet back. It was too wet and cold today but tomorrow should be about as good as the weather's gonna get this time of year and I'll get after it.

[Horatio Hornblower]

I bet plumbers have a basic occupational hazard, being elbow tendinitus and shoulder problems. After removing everything and reaming it out, I replaced 4 pieces (out of around a dozen). I had to crank on this stuff pretty hard to stop the leaks entirely after putting it all together. On some joints I used teflon tape and on others plumbers putty. It seemed to me that my odds were better with tape on some, with putty on the others. With enough tightening, I finally stopped the leaks.

I was very very lucky in that the beginning of the run that had the flow problems didn't leak when I put it back together. I really thought my odds weren't very good of that happening. If I had a leak there I'd have had to probably replace the whole assembly and I might have gone with copper as people suggested. I did replace 4 pieces, being a 12" straight, 2 female - female short straights and a male - male short straight. I replaced with all galvanized and it cost me a bit over $5, and I guess it will all be replaced when the plumbing's upgraded. I just don't know how soon that will happen. Probably anywhere from 6 months to

4 years. My flow's back to full to near full, and the water's clear and there's no leaks. I'll wait a few hours or a day to make sure the water stays clear and there's no leaks and then hook up the washing machine. Yippee!! Thanks for the help, suggestions, etc.